The importance of retention in hiring with Alexander Oldewage

Alexander Oldewage:
I’m specifically going to focus on candidate experience. And so, and I’m going to exclude the part where actually TA speaks to the candidates directly because that’s. They have an obvious influence on candidate experience in the, in the recruiter screen. But actually for the majority of the recruitment process, candidates actually deal with other stakeholders outside of ta, such as the hiring managers and towards the end of the process, usually with human resources.

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Yeliz Castillo:
Hello, everyone. Today I am with Alexander Olderwage, who has worked in different startups like Klarna and Adjust and currently is the lead talent acquisition manager at HiveMQ. And I’m really excited to have you here. Today we will be diving into the behind the scenes of the TA world and I can’t wait to hear your intake on this. But my first question, as always, is why do you think it’s important for people to know what happens behind the scenes?

Alexander Oldewage:
Well, firstly, thanks a lot for having me today and yeah, thanks for introducing the topic and yeah, this is just something that I, I think it’s important to speak about because there’s a lot of. I mean, I don’t think a lot of candidates actually know what TA actually does and there’s probably people working in companies that don’t actually know what TA does. So I think it might give some insight to people what TIA actually does. Also, I think if you’re new in talent acquisition, you might learn a trick or two of how you can influence certain things. But TA is sometimes seen as just kind of a function that pushes CVs through. So I think it’s just interesting to speak about what we actually do.

Yeliz Castillo:
Yeah, totally. I think when I first started I literally had no idea what to expect of the job. And also, like, how much happens, you know, like, obviously we all have applied to roles and, you know, especially when before working in ta, at least I did. And yeah, like, once I started there was so much that I had no idea about how crucial those things were. So what do you think are like the main parts that TA has an influence on the candidate experience?

Alexander Oldewage:
Yeah, so I’m specifically going to focus on candidate experience and so, and I’m going to exclude the part where actually TA speaks to the candidates directly because that’s. They have an obvious influence on candidate experience in the, in the recruiter screen. But actually for the majority of the recruitment process, candidates actually deal with other stakeholders outside of ta, such as the hiring managers and towards the end of the process, usually with human resources. So, yeah, I think basically your relationship with hiring managers is a very important Part of how the interview process goes and how the candidate experience goes. And what I think is important to start with is doing at least basic training for hiring managers. So I think in most of the companies, in most of the companies that I worked for, there was at least a basic training that hiring managers had to do. And usually TA either hosted this or were heavily involved in this. So that’s already a good start.

Setting SLAs around feedback because a lot of reasons for bad candidate experiences is not big enough with feedback taking too long to get back to candidates. So Things like setting SLAs with hiring managers or things that also come to mind. I also think that also clarifying feedback with hiring managers because sometimes hiring managers give feedback that’s not really that constructive or you know, you can’t ideally. I mean what I will start by saying is these days TA gets so many applicants at early stages, so it’s impossible to give very specific feedback at application stage or even at recruiter screen stage. But if a candidate at least spoke to a hiring manager or did any sort of task or invested any time, I think it’s really important to also push back on hiring managers and get more specific feedback and share this with candidates. So these are a few of the just very basic things that, that we can do. But beyond that, I think working in TA you have, I mean if you’re in TA leadership at least you have some influence about the tools that you use. So just stuff like the ATS could have a impact on candidate experience.

So sorry, ATS is applicant tracking system for those people who’s not working talent acquisition things like making the first interview booking very simple like using calendly or anything simple to book interviews. What we recently started using here is meta view which is kind of a note taker and it already just not typing while speaking to the candidate already I think also increases the candidate experience. So yeah, those are some of the things. And then towards the end of the process I think the TA’s relationship with HR is also very important. So staying close to hr because most companies I work for HR usually send out the contracts or the offers towards the end once again that it passes the interview process. And also similarly in companies where I worked before I said we set SLAs, we had an agreement, we try and send out offers within one day or we have some agreement in place to make sure that candidates don’t wait and that the experience is smooth. And yeah, other than that I also think. Sorry, one other thing that I forgot to mention is when even Reaching out to candidates for the initial interviews, making sure we, I mean, I helped create a lot of brochures with information about the company and the interview process so that they know what to expect and that they know what is upcoming. And yeah, I think just generally kind of managing expectations plays a massive role in candidate experience.

Yeliz Castillo:
Yeah, just being transparent really. Right. When you were saying all of those different stakeholders, I just, you know, obviously it’s my day today, it’s your day today. But sometimes I think it’s very easy to kind of overlook how many different stakeholders we actually have to deal with and how we’re constantly between, you know, either the candidate and the hiring manager or between HR and the hiring manager or between, you know, the different candidates as well or the different interviewers. Because if you’re like doing the full end to end and obviously you’re kind of touching all those kind of different points throughout the process. So what would you say is like the biggest challenge that TAs face by trying to juggle all those different stakeholders?

Alexander Oldewage:
Yeah, so I mean, I’ll start off by saying you have to deal with the candidates partners sometimes as well. When it gets to office stage, they often have to speak to their partners. I mean, I jokingly sometimes offer to speak to candidates wives if they want to help to exit the office.

Yeliz Castillo:
Good point, actually. I should introduce that.

Alexander Oldewage:
Yeah. But yep. So how do you, so, yep. How do you juggle the different cycles? And I mean you have to have close relationships with, for me, hiring manager, I’ve had call with hiring managers every week if I, if they are recruiting for a role, I make sure I have a weekly catch up. And I think it’s also important throughout the process to speak about candidate experience to create the urgency and keep reminding them of the scarcity of candidates. I mean, we are in a market where a lot of people got laid off. So there’s a lot of candidates in the market. But still really good candidates won’t be on the market for very long.

So it’s important to keep drilling this down. And also hiring managers do make mistakes. TA also make mistakes. Like it’s inevitable when, when you work with ta, someone is going to make a mistake somewhere. But yeah, it’s important to discuss this and kind of important to discover how we can improve on that if, if we did something that led to a bad candidate experience.

Yeliz Castillo:
Yeah.

Alexander Oldewage:
I also think another thing that’s not directly related to this question is we often send out candidate surveys and their candidates often give feedback and if there are any trends of A lot of candidates having complaints about the specific hiring manager, then it’s obviously important to address whatever was stated in the survey. So that’s another thing that you can use to help manage hiring managers. But yeah, the relationship with each hiring manager is quite individual. Hiring managers are quite, quite different from each other. So you have to be able to I think adapt and understand their point of view as well and their struggles as well. Because yeah, obviously we want quick feedback, we want very in depth feedback, but our main job is recruitment. Hiring managers often have other full time jobs and recruitment is obviously part of the job, but it’s not always. Yeah, they don’t always have as much time as us to like ride long, long score goals.

Yeliz Castillo:
Yeah, I like while you’re saying all of this, I’m obviously also kind of, you know, brainstorming in my head like all the experience I had. And I feel like for me one of the big, big challenges I have, you know, throughout different environments is I think the alignment also between talent and the hiring teams. And obviously this can be, you know, whether like this can be tech or this can be finance, this can be marketing, whatever area it is. But I think there’s actually a common goal of both sides. Obviously as you said, this is my full time job or our full time job, but it’s just part of their job and sometimes it’s difficult to align on those because we have to be obviously on it to chase the feedback, to arrange the calls, to find the time and then engage the candidate, engage the whole experience and then manage and coordinate the things. And then obviously from the hiring team it’s the same thing, right? Like they have to invest their time and also make the time. So I feel like for me it’s like this alignment, you know, that there is a need and we need to fill that need. And obviously that’s my goal.

But then also their goal because they have to reach things within their teams as well. And if they lack a skill then they need to have that asap. And then the second biggest challenge I think for me is also the fact that there is sometimes this issue between the, like the, the, the, the, the, the. Not the impression, I don’t know the word now, but the, the expectation almost of what, you know, should come out of hiring. You know, do we just hire okay because we need that skill and we, we you know, want to fill or do we think long term and then what do we do to keep, not just, you know, not just to hire someone but then also to keep that person after right and then they play so many things, a role that you I think have to think of. Of what, what the salary packages, what, you know, the, the development, you know, plans are for this person and all of those because you can hire. But then it’s not just about that, it’s also about keeping that person in the business. Right.

To reduce the cost to grow the business to reach the goals and so on. And obviously it kind of ties back to us then again because if then someone drops out and there is a high nutrition rate, then you have to come back and you know, work with TA again and so on. So for me I think is those two quite a big challenge. What’s your take on you know, not just hiring but keeping people also in the business from a TA perspective?

Alexander Oldewage:
Yeah. So I mean I think on your first point, yeah, I definitely agree. You have to get buy in from hiring managers and hiring is definitely like a team effort or a team sport. If just TAE is very passionate about hiring but the hiring managers and the hiring team aren’t on board, then it’s going to be very difficult. So yeah, you absolutely have to basically have their support and buy in and everyone needs to be aligned. And luckily for the most part when hiring managers have open roles it’s usually because they kind of lack a skill. So usually you should be able to, I mean if they’re not motivated, I should kind of be able to establish with them why, why it is important and it’s basically at the end of the day to help them. And if you, if you keep, if you put it to them that way that we are actually hiring, we actually doing, helping you, you’re trying to hire someone for a team, usually you have the buy in.

So yeah, I think that’s very good first point. And secondly in terms of the retention rate of candidates. So yeah, this is maybe something that I also thought about mentioning in my first answer but I think it’s. Yeah, once towards the end of the process when you give them over to hr, usually you don’t want the candidate experience to end there. You kind of want to keep in touch with this person. Usually if you’re an in house recruiter, you, you work at the same company but we get measured for instance on, on quality of hire and currently we’re just looking at this as someone who passes the preparation period, for instance is a good quality hire. And then along the line you also want to keep eye on basically performance reviews and how the candidate is doing within the company. So yeah, basically the tenor of the candidates that you hire is also important.

That should be important to ta. So I think that second point can go two ways. You want to hire people that do well, that we want to keep, and we also need to have an environment that they want to stay in. And I think both of these things combined lead to longer stays within companies because, I mean, we can have, we can have fairly low turnover and a pretty good environment, but if the candidate doesn’t have the technical skills, then it’s also going to lead to high turnover. So, yeah, I think it’s important to balance, to have a good environment that good people want to work in and to make sure that you have a good process so that you kind of identify and hire the good people. And I think those two things combined will lead to people staying longer. But in general, I think TA should definitely have an eye on how the people that they hire are performing.

Yeliz Castillo:
Yeah, I agree. I think it’s also good feedback for yourself. Right. And I think it’s also a way of kind of, if you’re obviously interested in getting better, to kind of measure the quality that you bring. And obviously you can never fully, you know, know how someone performs because there’s just so much time that we spend with someone in the beginning. It’s difficult obviously, to judge and, and also you never know how people turn out and how they feel in that environment and all of that. But I, I do think that the quality of hire is a really crucial data point that TA should look at in terms of, you know, we were talking about like how to retain then. Also, I think another big part of a TA’s role is to win a candidate over.

And I don’t think that just only starts when, you know, there is an offer in the conversation, but really from the very first introduction or conversation where you kind of start selling the company, you know, to, to a candidate. And I’m not talking about like the salesy sale and, you know, by telling people the, you know, lies or selling the company in the best possible way because, let’s be honest, no company is perfect. And there’s always ups and downs or good sides and bad sides. But what would you say is one of the things that you experience that have, has really helped you win candidates over for the company that you work for, whether that was in the past or now.

Alexander Oldewage:
Yeah, So a very good question. And I think this all starts with when I’m looking for a job myself. So usually when I’m applying for jobs, I try and find jobs with at least the engineers I’m usually doing tech recruitment, so I’m trying to find companies where it’s attractive for engineers to work. So you want to, ideally you want to work for a company that, that people want to work for. But yeah, so that’s the beginning. But like you said from the first call, you have to know what is good about the company. A question you often get is what do you like about working here? So be prepared to answer these types of questions. But also like you mentioned, don’t sugarcoat everything and be honest when someone asks you what don’t you like about working there? The reality is if you have to lie about any of these things, they are going to find out very, very quickly and it’s going to backfire massively.

It’s going to be all over Glassdoor and it’s going to be a disaster. So be honest is definitely a first thing. Another thing is again, DM usually speaks to the candidate quite early on and they also speak to quite a few hiring managers throughout the process. So if I identify a candidate that I think is really strong and we should really hire, I already, before the hiring manager interviews, I would give them a heads up saying like, this guy is really strong. So if you also have a very good feeling early on in the interview already try and also kind of celebrate what, what it would look like for them in the company, what the potential growth, growth path is and try and already sell the company in the, in the interviews. And yeah, another thing is then also to touch base with the candidate throughout the interview process and also ask them directly, like what, what do you think of us as an employer and how do we stack up against the other companies you’re interviewing for and just having a clear picture of what, what’s going on in their head. Because the reality is we’re not going to be able to win every single candidate. Sometimes they are going to choose other companies over us.

But at least having a clear picture, you can manage expectations internally of the hiring managers because you can if they know, if they don’t say you’re in the top two or something. I can almost, I’m very confident in saying they’re probably not going to accept our offer soon. Yeah, at least you can start managing expectations of hiring managers early on then. But oftentimes you get a very good feeling throughout the process if more selling is needed, where you stand with the candidate. And it all comes down to speaking with them, not just over email, but having a call and actually having a very clear conversation of their thoughts on you and Then also, yeah, selling. Having as many touch points as possible. I don’t want to say selling, but like kind of creating a picture of what it might look like there and why it could be good for them.

Yeliz Castillo:
For sure. Like, I also think it sometimes can be also like simple things, right? Like where they ask a question and you just don’t know. And instead of making something up and coming up with lies, like, what I usually do is also I just say, I’m sorry, I really don’t know. I don’t want to lie to you, you know, and, and, and also, you know, figuring out afterwards or. Yeah, just also being just very honest. Like, I like 99% of people ask literally the same question as you said, like, how do you feel working there and how’s the culture or whatever. And I always say it’s really difficult to generalize this because it can be a good environment for me, but it can be a bad one for you. That I think is also a bit a given a take in terms of, okay, how much implement do.

Do you involve yourself into the culture or how much do you want to be involved in it? You know, so. And it can be a great one for you, but it can be a bad one for me, you know, so I feel like this is really hard to, to judge for. For someone else. But I, I think there’s always, like, it’s always important to be just transparent the things that you think that needs, you know, like, have like an opportunity potential within the company, but then also the good things about a place. Because obviously we all, you know, have worked in places that were good or bad, but I’m sure there was always something good on it and also something like bad about it, you know, So I think just being transparent with people and just genuine sometimes can also lead to, you know, candidates going for you because they see like the authenticity. And I think as a recruiter ta, that’s the first door to showcase that for sure. I have one last question, actually, because you were saying on, you know, that you have to kind of give heads up to the hiring managers if a candidate is good and. Or like if they’re not so.

Or probably drop out and whatever. How do you think is like, you know, the influence on us, well, our influence on the hiring managers in terms of challenging them for candidates. I think sometimes what gets a bit missed from a candidate perspective is how much we actually fight for some candidates, you know, where you see the potential and maybe the hiring manager doesn’t because they haven’t spoken to. So how do you see that kind of

Alexander Oldewage:
Well, if I haven’t spoken to them, I would highly encourage them to speak to them and. But I would then also kind of tell them beforehand. This is why I thought they were, they were pretty good. But I think it’s, it’s very important for any good TA should fight for candidates. And I’ve had many examples of this over the course of my TA career. But basically, I mean, a classic example would be they have an interview panel. Four and maybe one says no and three says yes or two says yes and another maybe then you want to call them all together and kind of fight out. Like why, why did you say no? Because other people said this and this.

And you, you often have cases where decisions aren’t unanimous and usually TA is on the side of the candidate. In my experience, I’ve even had cases where someone got a no in a final. Not at my current company, but before at another company I worked for. And yeah, basically they got a no in the final. But throughout the process they got yeses and strong yes. So yeah, what I did is you bring in the whole panel that said yes to kind of back you up here. I will say this. TA just on their own.

You kind of can’t just go in and fight the battle on your own, but you have to get the buy in of also other people that spoke to the candidate that was also thought that they were good. And you have to make a case for it. I mean, sometimes there’s just. It’s impossible to make a case if it’s unanimously no across the board. There’s just no battle to be won there. But oftentimes there are battles that you can attempt to win. And some you win, some you lose. But you have to try.

Yeliz Castillo:
Yeah. Okay, great. Thank you so much. I really appreciate your insights here. I think it’s very valuable to, for people to understand, I guess how much TA actually does and what really happens. Great. So what would be your top tip for TAs to be successful in TA? Like when it comes to the candidate experience point.

Alexander Oldewage:
Yes. So I mean, I’ll mention maybe I can give maybe more than one. But I mean, firstly, I think it’s important to establish SLAs or rough guidelines for between yourself and hiring managers on feedback, how long it should take. In my opinion, it should not take more than 24 hours to fill out the scorecard. Secondly, make sure that you are streamlined, have your kickoff meeting, make sure the whole interview panel know what they’re doing and that you have the buy in of the hiring manager as well as the interview team. And lastly, have a good relationship with HR as well, to make sure at the end of the process when offers need to be sent, that things run smoothly. And I would say those are my three top tips off the top of my head.

Yeliz Castillo:
Perfect. Thank you so much, Alexander, for being here and for sharing your time. And, yeah, all the best to you.

Alexander Oldewage:
All right, thanks for having me. Bye. Bye.

Yeliz Castillo:
You’re welcome. Bye.