Navigating the AI Transformation in Human Resources with Sandra Kosse

Thomas Kohler:
Today’s guest, Sabrina Kosse.

Sabrina Kosse:
I was reading a study and this study was really, really clear. Written in six years, in 2030, our skills, 65% of our working skills will be not useful anymore. Right. So I have at least six year time to change my skills. Otherwise, 65 of my percentage of my skills and also the skills of my teams will not longer useful, right. And that was for me like, oh, my gosh, that’s not so much time. So I must start immediately, maybe now, right? And therefore it’s for me like, okay, let the CDO and the CPO doing the technical stuff, but I must look, okay, how I can bring the right mindset, the right innovation, openness, and also the openness from people that they are ready to make this change in the company, right. Because humans are normally in this position that they say, change sounds nice, but maybe the other can go first, right. That is a little bit of human behavior normally that they say, how do.

Thomas Kohler:
You drive that as a people and organizational leader?

Sabrina Kosse:
Yeah. So I guess I have a little bit. Seven milestones that every time follow and that, yeah, that is for me the first thing that I make the concentration of the problem. Because especially us, when you’re looking to the environment of J and E I, there are so many things in the moment, right? And you as a company and especially as a people and organization part, must be maybe a little bit despairing that it don’t go in a completely cast that also with the CTO to say, okay, there are so many possibilities, but maybe let go one step out of the other, because people don’t can do everything on the same time. Right? So you must have and then you must make it touchable for the people. Okay, there’s a real problem. And when we follow the path, we can use this or we can solve this problem, right? And that is so for me, the first step to say, okay, find a problem, what you want to solve and make it touchable or catchable for the people that they really see the value of using the new tool, the new process, and that they also see, okay, it costs maybe a little bit more time now, but it will have an effect, right? So it’s to make it more visible.

Thomas Kohler:
Sabrina and I talked about how to get a seat at the sea level with the people function, use cases for AI and NHR, and also how to drive the change management with executive teams.

Hey Sabrina, nice to meet you again. I think we had a few conversations last year and now we stayed in touch and now we are here doing a podcast on generative AI and the people function overall. And I like your perspective, what we already discussed before, it’s not just about the technology, it’s more about the holistic view and it’s not about the tools and the colors and what you use. And I’m looking forward to deep diving into that. But maybe we can start with a short introduction.

Sabrina Kosse:
Yeah, sure. Thanks Thomas for having me. And it’s really great to be at least a part of this podcast because I’m a huge fan since last couple of months and therefore, yeah, I’m Sabrina, I’m working now since 16 years in the HR people function, however you want to call because when I was started, my function was named as in Germany, you would say personnel Sachba Abatte. So really a focus of administrative stuff from the HR side. And then I was a part of the evolution when it comes to the english fancy name human research. And then in the next couple of years we come to people in Qaja and now I guess we are in the next step on the evolution to, yeah, skip it in the people and organization part. And yeah, it makes a lot of fun and it’s also for me every time a pleasure to see how huge is now the impact from the people function. And when I was starting in my career, it was not, nobody was believing that a woman and a mother on the people, on culture function can be a sea level, right? And therefore I’m so proud that I’m now here sitting as a mother, as a woman, as a c level for the second time from a company.

And I make the proof point that I say yes, it makes a value and it makes sense to have a c level because I make it every time also a little bit in this way that I started as a repeat or head off or something like this and then say, it’s fine for me because I’m not looking for names, but let me show you that you need a c level on your table and it works every time. And that makes me really, really happy because I see great.

Thomas Kohler:
What’s the secret sauce? So maybe there’s not the secret sauce, but what’s the framework?

Sabrina Kosse:
I’m not sure. I guess it’s more like that I have every time maybe the huge luck that I have a fantastic team around me. Right? So because it’s not a single person as me that I can make the proof point, it’s more like maybe I have the secret that I find right people around me and then we can make together the right improvement for this. So that’s maybe the secret to find the right people. And of course I was really, I was from the first point when I started my career, I was every time not only looking to culture topics, I was every time also very interested in analytics stuff. So therefore I was every time a huge fan of numbers. And of course then I have every time entry the heart of every CFO because I was in my argumentation, not only I feel it or I have the feeling it was my, like, let’s look in the number. And when you’re looking at the numbers that show you that, right.

So, and therefore it was every time easy to come in a discussion with the c levels and also with the CEO, because it’s more familiar with them to talk about numbers and not about feelings. And maybe it’s that a secret.

Thomas Kohler:
Sabrina, I think this is what I can highlight and also can say that was a part of the launching episode back then with Stefan Reese, CEO of SAP back then, and he talked about how you get a seated table. It’s just by being so relevant with the topics you bring to the table that they just cannot ignore what you bring to the table. And maybe therefore you need also, as you said, the right team, the right setup to look at the right areas and also then come up with relevant conclusions and proposals, maybe. But also being very data driven, analytical on how to showcase it and speaking the language of somebody, as you said, sitting in the sea level or being a CEO. And I think that’s a really important skill, what can be trained.

Sabrina Kosse:
Yeah, absolutely. And I guess the first maybe reflection what you must do, don’t be shy, right? Nobody will come to you and say, hey, maybe I can invite you to the table. It would be nice when you be there. No, be annoying. And when I have a topic, what is important for me, I’m the annoying person in the room. I can promise. Right?

Thomas Kohler:
Nice.

Sabrina Kosse:
Yes, but that is the way how you can make a point and how you bring the people that they don’t, can ignore you, right. To say, hey, I’m every time here. And of course you can. Don’t answer me. And yeah, you can. Don’t answer me ten times, but under eleven times I’m also there, right? So. And I guess that is the first thing to say on that I see often by people teams or people manager, they a little bit shy. They say maybe I don’t want to be so annoying.

Maybe that make the wrong impression. No, I guess that is the wrong way. Right? You have important topic, the importance more important as ever, and therefore do it right. So I guess it’s a little bit mixed of be annoying and have the right numbers on the right timing.

Thomas Kohler:
Definitely. And now I think the discussion of AI is all over the place. And you already mentioned before that maybe a CTO would take the perspective on what’s the right tool and also how to implement it, maybe. And what to use. But how to use it and what to do with it is a total different topic. What’s your perspective on that?

Sabrina Kosse:
Yeah, you’re absolutely right. My feet is full of it with AI and all the tools that I can use and so on. And to be honest, I’m really short. I’m not the smartest person in the room when it comes to what is the right AI tool for me or for us, right. Then I trust my CTO or my CPO and will follow them. But when I’m looking to the whole perspective and a little bit also for my people perspective is more like, okay, when we want to go this new way and it’s a little bit like when the Internet was coming in the nineties, you have a huge change in transformation process before you, right? And therefore the people, teams must also hear setting the framework that people and teams can make this possible. And I was a little bit mentioned this before when we talk, I was reading a study and in this study, study was really, really clear, written in six years, in 2030, our skills, 65% of our working skills will be not useful anymore, right? So I have at least six year time to change my skills. Otherwise, 65 of my percentage of my skills and also the skills of my teams will not longer useful, right? And that was for me like, oh my gosh, that’s not so much time.

So I must start immediately, maybe now, right? And therefore it’s for me like, okay, let the CDO and the CPO doing the technical stuff, but I must look, okay, how I can bring the right mindset, the right innovation, openness and also the openness from people that they are ready to make this change in the company, right? Because humans are normally in this position that they say change sounds nice, but maybe the other can go first, right? That is a little bit of human behavior normally that they say, how do.

Thomas Kohler:
You drive that as a people and organizational leader?

Sabrina Kosse:
Yeah. So I guess I have a little bit seven milestones that every time follow and that. Yeah, that is for me the first thing that I make the concentration of the problem. Because especially us, when you’re looking to the environment of J and E I, there are so many things in the moment, right. And you as a company, and especially as the people and organization part must be maybe a little bit despairing that it don’t go in a completely caroused also with the CTO to say, okay, there are so many possibilities, but maybe let’s go one step out of the other, because people don’t can do everything on the same time. Right. So you must have and then you must make it touchable for the people. Okay, there’s a real problem.

And when we follow the path, we can use this or we can solve this problem, right. And that is for me the first step to say, okay, find a problem, what you want to solve and make it touchable or catchable for the people that they really see the value of using the new tool, the new process and that they also see, okay, it costs maybe a little bit more time now, but it will be have an effect, right. So to make it more visible and then, of course for me. So the second thing is communication. Also to make really, really clear in the company why you are making this now, why is also to take a little bit of fear of the people. Because I heard also a lot of discussions. So, yeah, maybe when I now support this new gen I topic, then maybe I lose my job because nobody needs me. And I read an article from Klarna that they make 700 people losing their job because they have knowledge and I customer support or something like this, right.

So there’s a lot of feelings in the people and I guess so in the second time you must make a clear trans communication to say, okay, what is the goal? And no, it’s not a task to make a rescheduling from your position. It’s more like, okay, we make your life easier with this and you can more efficient and we can make a better work life choice or whatever you want to say, right?

Thomas Kohler:
Yes. And this is also, I think generally what I saw as the biggest, I would say, trend maybe for this year, that it’s not about something AI implementing technology or leveraging technology. It’s more about how to understand where to leverage it and also testing it and then maybe piloting it and rolling it out and making sure that the the tests are successful and focused enough that you then really can leverage and use it. And I think a lot of people are just using the buzzword and are just saying it but not doing something. And I think if you are really wanting, if you really want to be one of the fast movers there and having a first mover advantage or early adopter advantage, then it’s now the time, as you said, to focus on maybe one single process step and then from different angles test on how could we average technology there. And what does it mean then in terms of implication on our behavior or day job and then making sure that we make this change or implement it and really use it. Absolutely.

Sabrina Kosse:
And there are also really good best practice examples that we can look in the market, right. Because I was talking to somebody from manpower and I was, that was for me the perfect example because they use now for the recruiting process Genai. And that don’t mean they need less recruiter, but they can focus more on the quality tasks, right. So they have Genai to make a recap from the CV and then they make maybe a shortcut or a summary out of that and it goes automatically before they use 2 hours for do this, right. And now the recruiter has more time to talk with the customer and with the candidates to go deeper what they need, what is the expectation to prepare them better for the talks. And they see what they’re using from the genai. They have the same amount of recruiter but they have more hirings, right. And they are faster.

And that is the fantastic thing for how you can use it without the fear to lose your job, right. And therefore focus on one thing. And I guess manpower made it really, really smart to say, okay, we look on one process that means the CV scheduling and to reading and make the summary. Then we try it, we look how it works and then we can go the next steps, right. And therefore exactly what you say. It’s step by step.

Thomas Kohler:
And what do you use it internally for?

Sabrina Kosse:
So in a moment test it. Yeah, yeah. So we are now a little bit in a testing phase. So of course chat GPT is our everyday best friend because that it has an easy access and you have a, has an environment where you can try out really, really simple and you can try out by yourself, right? So that makes it a little bit easier. And also you don’t must be shy because nobody can see when you make a mistake or when you use a wrong prompt badge. We really really talk officely and ultimately in our company about it, right. We also have AI initiative, where we sharing knowledge, where we have maestro’s trainings about it.

Also in different levels because also when you’re looking in your company and your team, you will have people by nature, they are really interesting and technology things. And they have other starting point in their knowledge. They know the difference between Gen AI and AI, between machine learning and all the stuff that they can talk to you 1 hour about it. And then you have the people they have never heard about before and they say, what there’s a difference between AI and Gen AI? I don’t know why. Right. And therefore we have now in a moment also different trainings about it to look, okay, how we can take the people on different points they are sending that all have the same knowledge and all have the same understanding. So we started about, okay, let’s use it, let’s try it. We make some nice workshop also maybe create some nice picture in midden journey or in Dali or however you want to use it.

We make small challenges to say, okay, who can create the funniest picture. So also to bring it a little bit, maybe in a nice and easy way, in the ways of working of our teams. But don’t start with a huge perspective of a goal that you say, okay, for the customer, you must deliver this, this and this. It’s more like, okay, make a little bit more gamification and say, okay, we make it internally, we make a small game around it. And when we are now a little bit more familiar with this, then let’s start. Okay, how you use it really in your daily work, right? So that means, okay, we shared some best practice examples here, maybe some prompts that you can use to be faster and you work and make your life easier. And then we make some, of course, challenges about it. And then now we go in the next steps and to say, okay, beautiful AI.

How we can make maybe the smartest and funniest or easiest slides or something like this, right. It’s more like step by step and by. I suppose in the first step, as I see, we was looking at a problem. The problem was we have different knowledge languages or knowledge status about the whole topic, genei. So then we are focused on, okay, how we can bring the knowledge together on one level. How we can bring it normally or easily in the work ways of working from the daily life. Right. And JetgbT was the perfect entry point for this.

Sabrina Kosse:
And then now we are looking how we can transform it really in our business needs. So that is a little bit of how we do. And the third step, when we’re talking a little bit about seven milestones is for me to also invest education time in your leader because leadership is normally very good on professional tasks and they’re really good in his topics like products, marketing or whatever. But they maybe have never training how they manage change in the right way, how they managed transformation in the right way. So also you must invest time in your leadership and give them a little bit more skills or instruments, how they can make it in the right way, how they can interact with the teams, with the feelings, maybe with the fear, and that they also steer and manage them in the team in the right way. So that is for me also really, really important.

Thomas Kohler:
What would be for you the most problems you see in executives when they not get change management right overall and what could they do about it?

Sabrina Kosse:
So I guess the huge problems is that they don’t setting the right motivation for the team, that maybe they steer off old target setting and they don’t make any motivation or go setting for innovation, right. They’re more too focused on the daily business and they don’t looking forward one communication because maybe they also not 100% sure what will be happening. Therefore, maybe they make one or two less communication to the team. That is also a huge problem. And then maybe they’re looking for the right. Because also what I see often, especially when we’re looking for hiring manager, they are so focused on professional skills and they forgot about the soft skills, right? And therefore, for me it’s also that the leader must have a little bit view in the future, okay. Not what I need those skills now, what is more the skill set, what I need in one year or two years, because professional skills, we both know this, right? You can learn. But if you are open for change, if you are open for innovation, if you are motivated to be every time go a little bit the extra mile, that is nothing.

But you can learn. And therefore also the leaders must learn how they can find the right skill set around in a team. And also that you have a mixed team, that you not only have the same skill set and so on, and that I guess will be more important coming in the next years. And therefore you must also sensibly make decentralization with your team leads. And also a little bit the whole legal stuff, right? Because the whole gene eye topic is a huge topic about ethic, it’s data security and also must make a little bit education for your leadership, how they can use it in the right way and what means this in the legal side, right? So it’s more like it’s one is the softer side and one is weird legal side. And you must give them the right basic that they also can act in this framework.

Thomas Kohler:
Yeah. And I think also from a legal perspective and also from a storyline perspective on how you, I would say, market do the marketing around the topic and the motivations behind using it. Right. It’s, I think when you just look at self driving cars, and I think it was really hyped, it was futuristic, but also people had fear. And then I think in San Francisco there was an incident where a self driving car killed a person. Yeah. And then everybody just stopped and said, hmm, now self driving cars will not be good because they kill people. But how many people die in car accidents, right.

And how many accidents could maybe be prevented if there would not be a human driving? I would not say that it’s good that somebody is dying for a car accident. Not at all. Of course. Right. But I think the perspective is also important, right? Absolutely. And not just the perspective for the poor number, but also how to emotionalize it and how to trigger certain behavior in certain groups of people.

Sabrina Kosse:
Absolutely. I guess you make a really, really important point to create a culture where it’s okay also to make a mistake, because in a change in transformation process, it’s also, it will become that you don’t make from the first moment everything. Right. And you will make tryouts, you will, especially when you’re using new tools. Nothing is working for the first moment in the right way. And your example, why it shows also, yeah, there’s one accident, of course it’s disaster, but it must be also okay. Not maybe with the death, but most of the time when we are working, nobody is dying. So it’s more like, okay, it’s totally fine to make a mistake when you try out new things, right.

And that you must create a space as a lead where people also feel safe enough to do this. Right. And to also make a risk and to say, okay, now, maybe I try it out and maybe it’s a little bit risky, but it’s okay because I have the safety. My lead is behind me. And this trust or to learn this as a lead is maybe also something, but needs a little bit time. Right. And I guess this culture is really, really important to also steer from the people and organization team that people have this feeling.

Thomas Kohler:
In case you have any feedback or anything you want to share with me, please send me an email on thomasseoplewise.com or hit me up on LinkedIn. And in case you really enjoy the show, please subscribe I would really appreciate it. How do you see the whole AI topic being let’s say fully integrated in organizations from your viewpoint, how do you see we will work in maybe ten years from now when you really think big and futuristic?

Sabrina Kosse:
I guess it will be a completely out of way of work. And maybe we come then easily two hour four days week because we are more efficient as before. And when you’re looking a little bit in the history, right? So you saw every time the steps, right? Industrialization when it comes to cars and all the stuff then it changed completely when the Internet starts and another nineties it starts completely. And I thinking also there will become new positions because I will also I’m really really sure for example back end and front end engineers, we don’t need them in this amount of people where we have it in the last years, right? So maybe that will decrease but there will come new position that we need, right? So I guess it will creating new positions and it’s more like I guess that we need the same human power but in another way. And I guess that is the point what I make. So we must now learn how we can find our place and what is the right position that we need to steer this genai topic or the tools in the right way. Because that is not what are we working without us. It’s more like that we use it together.

And when I’m thinking about in ten years I’m really sure I will also work in the people and organization department. Let’s look how the name den is. But I’m really really sure that I will use my time in another way. So now I’m maybe sitting the whole day 90% on a laptop in meetings and looking in excel sheets and so on. And I guess that is not the way how it will work.

Thomas Kohler:
Maybe there’s a hologram in front of you.

Sabrina Kosse:
Yes, maybe.

Thomas Kohler:
And you’re sitting with everybody at this nice, nice dinner table because I’m currently in a hotel in Vienna and then I said I need a room for podcasting and they just gave me the fanciest dinner location. So maybe you could do it in person here then as a hologram.

Sabrina Kosse:
I was thinking the whole time it’s a Google background.

Thomas Kohler:
No, no, it’s real.

Sabrina Kosse:
It looks fantastic. Yeah. So maybe you can go directly after the podcast to the dinner. I’m not really sure because ten years is such a long time, right? So I don’t can say what I do in two years I guess now. And that is I guess the most reflection what we must do now that nothing is safe. Also, you don’t can say what you will do in the next ten years. You can say what I will do this year and what is my focus and my strategy for this year. But I’m really, really sure we must change our goals from year to year. And it’s not possible to make a five or ten year plan because that happens so much in the next ten years. Right? So yeah, hologram.

Thomas Kohler:
I think that a lot of more that the complexity of jobs will definitely increase because we will be way more capable in doing simple stuff what maybe previously took years of experience or training in certain field. Like, let’s just take planning. It’s so difficult to create a headcount. Yes, and a lot of companies like you can name the top companies like Google, Meta, whatever, who are associated with outstanding talent acquisition and people stuff, but you can also take an early stage startup. They all don’t get it right with the head complaining. Maybe from a framework perspective there are sophistications, but ultimately there is something unforeseen happening. You need to react and you need to react now. So I think that will never be really solved, to be honest, unless you can really predict the future.

Sabrina Kosse:
Absolutely, maybe there.

Thomas Kohler:
But I think that, sorry, that a lot of organizations will be way more capable in just knowing how to plan or using certain planning frameworks by just maybe prompting. I do it for my company as well. In terms of financial planning. Back then I needed to do spreadsheets and used number and I say, okay, that’s the growth I want to achieve. What would this mean in terms of, for me, in terms of milestones accomplished? Is it realistic or not? Is it a good case, a bad case? Give me several scenarios. I just use chat GPT for this at the moment. Also for another company where we look into financial planning and setting sales targets and activity targets, we just do a lot of prompting instead of using a spreadsheet. And then of course you can more customize, but that’s so cool.

And then you just get a timeline and a forecast and then we just say, okay, now make it 3% more efficient in terms of growth, plus add 24 months to it, right? And then it’s like, okay, waiting and like, oh, wow, cool.

Sabrina Kosse:
Absolutely. So I do it a little bit in the same way that because for me it has the beauty that chat GPT is not emotional, because when it comes to planning you as a lead, you have also every time emotional things and you are not objective, right? You are really into the company, into the people. Maybe you have also the wish that the growth will coming and so on, right. And jet GPT is more realistic and say yeah it’s nice what you are thinking but I don’t fucking care because that are the numbers and please focus on this. Right and I guess that is a really cool thing because the most of the planning as you say also a huge company doesn’t work because of emotion or politics. It’s not that nobody knows how they feel in the right way exit sheet. It’s more like the environment around, right. And therefore yeah absolutely I guess that will be coming and then we say okay yeah maybe they’re more objective and I can follow them and they took around all the emotions and only looking on the numbers and that is often what I’m missing in this discussion. Right.

Therefore it’s a huge advantage. And I totally agree when you say our jobs become more complex I guess we will have also other speed, right. Because we will be more efficient and we can solve other problems and I guess also how we use or we solve tasks because normally when I’m looking a little bit in my background you are every time the smartest in the room when you have the huge knowledge, right? So because when I I’m old, right when I was going into school I was reading in books and then in my last couple of years in school Google was coming and that was the whole shit. But when you are now looking the people now they are in school, they use chat JPT, right? They don’t looking okay. How I can learn it in a book or something like this. But they learn other skills, right. They learn how they make the right searching for just how to make the prompt they don’t need the knowledge and I guess that will also be changed, right.

You must know you don’t must be the smartest in the room. You must know how you can find the information in the smartest way and that is a little bit other scope what you need and skill set and I guess that would also make a huge impact in our work.

Thomas Kohler:
Cool, thanks Sabrina, I think that’s great. Final words and we are right on time and it was really a pleasure to talk to you.

Sabrina Kosse:
Thanks a lot for having me and looking for the next time.