Mastering Freelance Talent Acquisition – Insights from Leslie Kivit

Thomas Kohler:
Today’s guest, Leslie Kivit.

Leslie Kivit:
Basically making sure that the interviewer experience is always similar. So that interviewers are basically trained right. On the way how they ask questions on the answers that they can expect, and that these answers are also ranked internally. Of how good looks like. This is how, if the answer is something like this, then the candidate is likely going to be excellent. If the answer is like this, the candidate is likely going to be not so good. Or you might want to ask a follow up question.

That’s a practice I have not really seen anywhere else where they have very extensive question libraries where hiring managers are really in control. Also of sort of the type of questions they want to ask while not actively participating in the recruiting process itself. They’re there as a bar raiser or as someone basically to keep an eye on the process, but they’re not often the person that’s going to interview the person, what is it on personal ability or whatsoever.

And that’s, yeah, you know, removing that bias from the interviewer side from a process was a real eye opener on how you can do really good interviews for your company. And that’s an experience that I basically took along to the other startups that I basically helped after. Because one of the biggest mistakes that you can make as a startup, and which one is also very expensive, is by hiring the wrong people. And specifically if you’re going to make those key hires in your 2nd, 3rd or fourth ways of hiring, these hires are super expensive if they go wrong. And what they do extremely well. I think at least at Meta is trying to minimize this error, basically to a minimum.

Thomas Kohler:
Leslie Kivit, who is doing interim CTO, CPO work and was a freelancer a long time ago, working for Rocket Internet back then, meta, then home 24 center. So a lot of exciting companies and did it as employee, but also as manager, executive director and as an interim manager. And we talked about a lot of learning stories about his time back then. So every freelancer that wants to go down the interim director, manager, executive role, that’s something really interesting for you. Today we have Leslie Kivit on the show. We know, I think from four or five years ago where I was in Amsterdam, at a sourcing recruiting event and where you were present still, I think back then, still doing recruiting sourcing for Oculus in Surich or so, I guess, right? Yeah, it was, for me, something. Wow. Because I was just in the middle of my career as an employee and a recruiter and really was excited about, okay, how does the next company stage look like? And I was out there flying through Europe gathering information, and this was really valuable for me to just have a conversation with you because it was something I’ve never done before. Speaking with somebody from meta in recruitment, it was really interesting. Right now we have you here a few years later, and I’m looking forward to talk about social engineering, intelligent acquisition, and also about freelancing. And maybe we start, Leslie, by you giving us a bit of a story to yourself. And then we dive into the.

Leslie Kivit:
Absolutely. And, yeah, also, thank you so much for inviting me over and actually really excited to walk you through those two topics. So, yeah, something personal, I guess so. I’m actually born and raised in Holland. I’m originally actually from a city called Rotterdam, and I actually come from a family where they never really moved out of the city. They always stayed inside of the city. All my friends actually did the same, and I wanted to do something else, I guess. And all my friends and I guess also some of my family members were doing.

And I was doing a business degree also back then, always know nearby home, also in Rotterdam, and they offered doing what is like an abroad internship. So I did my abroad internship basically in China. So I went to Shanghai for half a year, leaving Holland behind and doing something in HR for the very first time. And this is basically where I realized that working with people, but working with people towards a certain business sort of purpose, is something that really sort of excited me. And when I came back from China, I was actually trying to find a role. I think it was back then there was an economical Cris and whatnot.

And I think it’s just a funny thing to mention. Also, as part of an intro, you will probably also recognize how old I am, is that this was still the time where you were able to smoke in the office.

So I applied at the. So they basically know we won’t be paying you, but if you work here for three months, then we will pay your holiday to Kirasau, which is like a dutch island in the Italies. And I remember I came there in the office, and there was this guy sitting by this big oak brown desk, and he was smoking behind his desk while actually searching monster board. At the time, so that was actually my introduction to recruiting sort of as a whole. So I sourced there on monster board and some of these dark shelves and job boards at the time. And when I learned bullion and knew that recruiting was something that I would actually enjoy. Yeah. So later on developed my career into recruiting.

Went from agency to booking.com. So learned a lot actually at booking.com. Was the first organization that I joined. It was going through like a massive hypergrowth. I was hired there to build a graduate program in Amsterdam from the ground up. We did about 200 hires in our first year and a half, which was quite impactful. 90% of those folks actually converted. And why do I still remember these numbers? Because it’s the first company I worked for that was so data driven.

There was a CTO at the time, I think his name was Brendan Banks, who was so hard on providing numbers and funnels and you name it. And up to that point was not really interesting. But when I worked there, I was just being held responsible basically for doing that stuff.

Thomas Kohler:
But that’s important early on that you have somebody really shaping very, I would say, general truths about business principles. Like one is being data driven that are always positive, right. And value adding. So I think having this early on that’s shaping your career is then laying the foundation of fast trajectory of the career or also just enabling growth.

Leslie Kivit:
Yeah, absolutely. And it was an engineer, right? So it was funny. It was not really someone from recruiting that said, hey, this is important, was our cto that said it. And I guess it’s cool to see how those worlds can actually merge and how you can learn from one another. Them sometimes being a bit more empathetic, I guess, and recruiting at the time, becoming more data driven. My time at booking ended, learned something about this phenomenon, which is called startups. So basically got an offer from broker to Internet to, what is it? Join their ship and help build startups.

Like hello, Ferris and the liver hero and whatnot. So basically became the director of ta there. Really learned how to hustle. It’s an ugly word nowadays. I also think it’s an ugly word, right. So let’s just change it for working hard. Well, I really learned what working hard means and making impact also. Really? Yeah, so I worked very closely actually with Alexander Kublick and with Oliver somewhere.

Learned a lot about how to build a business and entrepreneurship and whatnot. And I think that fueled that sort of initial fire in me of not always following the already existing path of being a rebel every now and then, because I think that’s what you need to be also when you’re a founder. And yeah, I remember that at that point also with Internet also decided to change the organization.

They moved from being this very large sort of venture capital arm in becoming more of smaller office basically. And that was also the time for me basically to move. Then actually started my first freelance XC gig and we will talk about it a little bit later. But at my first freelance assignment with Catcher guide at the time and then basically had a couple of more at home 24 and then also at door to door. And I really liked the freelancing stuff because it allowed me to see a lot of companies within a short span of time. And if I have to be honest, I think also your priorities are, when you’re dead early in your career are a bit different. I found it important obviously to see a lot of organizations, but at the same time going to be honest, I also just wanted to make money as well. And I think freelancing is a great opportunity to also build revenue or whatnot.

Thomas Kohler:
I think that’s really true because for me this is also really outstanding. I just wanted to summarize one thing. What I think is really important when you think of it as a listener. First of all, I think that it makes fun and that it’s like, as you said, really rewarding financially. But also from the experience you get, you at first need to really develop a skill. And I think having there a solid in house experience in recruitment, especially at companies that did recruiting really sophisticated or ambitious, I would say that’s maybe already enough and a good foundation. And if you then also are very scrappy, pragmatic in the way you work and good in communication, it’s really great to start freelancing because you maybe can earn double or triple of what you can earn as an employee if you do it right and also get way more exposure into environments that are currently going crazy because this is where usually a lot of freelancers are also necessary. Right. So that was just a short thing I wanted to highlight as well, additionally.

Leslie Kivit:
Yeah, absolutely, you’re so right. And I also just constantly wanted to challenge myself. So I think also ketchup guide was going through hypergrowth, home 24 was getting through hypergrowth and being able to be part of these environments was something that at least at the time, I found extremely exciting. I think the values that I had in work, I mean, did change and I think we can talk about it a little bit later. But at that time, gathering that experience high growth organizations was something that I found important and maybe this is, you know, maybe this is interesting for the listeners also, as a person, I’m an introvert, right. So I used to stutter when I was young, and so I went to, I don’t know the english word for it, but I went to speaking practice and whatnot.

That would help me, basically, to stop with stuttering. And I think that sort of pushed me to always do things out of my comfort zone. So I don’t like public speaking, but we met because I was public speaking somewhere in Amsterdam.

Thomas Kohler:
And I don’t remember the topic, but I just remembered you as a person and that it was relevant. I think that’s so valuable.

Leslie Kivit:
Yeah, I appreciate it. This is something, at least that’s my internal sort of therapy. I would say, like nowadays, to still push yourself to go outside of your comfort zone and speak to people that seem to be out of reach. But actually, when you talk with them, like founders and other executives, they’re actually really normal people. And I guess that’s also why I really liked the freelancing part. Right. So I could engage with decision makers and learn from them. So curious to learn how they’re building all these awesome organizations.

Yeah. And then one day, I actually got a call from a recruiter at Meta, at Facebook at the time, who said, we’re looking for a very senior recruiter here, would like to help us to build the Zurich office. And this was right around the whole privacy drama around Facebook as well. So I was not super keen on listening to the offer. But then he said, yeah, but it’s for Oculus, and I’m a huge nerd. I love everything that relates to tech, and Oculus are the AR VR headset. And so I immediately said yes. I went to interview and whatnot and absolutely had the time of my life at Facebook.

I moved to Zurich, found a new partner in Zurich, got two kids in Switzerland.

Thomas Kohler:
Nice, congrats.

Leslie Kivit:
Yeah, thank you so much. So, yeah, basically build a future here. We talked about Facebook a little bit in the beginning. I think what was so awesome about the time at Facebook is that everything is so professional, right? So if I remember that presentation correctly that I did in Amsterdam at the time, we had videos, right, where there were demos in the presentation itself, like how the device looked like or how a recruiting process looked like. Everything is so sharp. It’s like, very. Well, it’s like you’re looking at an apple sort of presentation, right? And then on every aspect, so. Including also recruiting. I would really appreciate it, and that was a super interesting time.

Thomas Kohler:
What was the thing that shaped you most, maybe also from a talent acquisition perspective or for you as a professional when you were at Meta?

Leslie Kivit:
I think stakeholder relations because I often felt, at least in the beginning, and I think it was due to my experience at booking that specifically within TA. I think in Berlin at the time, it’s way different now, but at the time, I think the level of recruiting in Berlin at the time was not so high because if there was a recruiter that was interested in the field itself, this person would often move to HR, would become an HR manager because the recruiting rules are not paying enough or it’s completely changed now, but back. So I always found recruiting more exciting. I found HR also cool, but I found recruiting just very exciting. And then I joined meta. And then you were in the best in class, right. Everybody’s really good, everybody is really smart. So you’re automatically very humbled in your experience. And I think the added value that I brought is that I had a lot of experience in stakeholder management and talking to founders or talking to really senior sort of profiles.

Thomas Kohler:
Especially the time at Rocket Internet, right. There was just a high pace, high demanding environment. If you are not top of mind and manage the stakeholders, I think you’re not really able to do this in a very standardized way where maybe this is comparable when you were at rocket because I think that was the stakeholders, as you mentioned, like Alex and Oliver, they are, I think something what you don’t see in any other organization, right?

Leslie Kivit:
No, absolutely.

Thomas Kohler:
So it’s not a hiring manager to manage, it’s just this person individually. And I think when you have these periods and this time this shapes you.

Leslie Kivit:
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, you’re trying to figure out how you can convince people and how you can find sort of a compromise. That’s basically good for both parties. I think that’s one thing and more technical, I guess, is the aspect of calibration. I actually think you had one of your other guests on the show as well who also worked at know before. And I think what Facebook is really big about is about interview calibration.

And basically making sure that the interviewer experience is always similar. So that interviewers are basically trained right. On the way how they ask questions on the answers that they can expect and that these answers are also ranked internally. Of how good looks like.

This is how, if the answer is something like this, then the candidate is likely going to be excellent if the answer is like this, the candidate is likely going to be not so good. Or you might want to ask a follow up question. That’s a practice I have not really seen anywhere else where they have very extensive question libraries where hiring managers are really in control. Also of sort of the type of questions they want to ask while not actively participating in the recruiting process itself.

They’re there as a bar raiser or as someone basically to keep an eye on the process, but they’re not often the person that’s going to interview the person, what is it on personal ability or whatsoever. Removing that bias from the interviewer side from a process was a real eye opener on how you can do really good interviews for your company. And that’s an experience that I basically took along to the other startups that I basically helped after. Because one of the biggest mistakes that you can make as a startup, and which one is also very expensive, is by hiring the wrong people, right? And specifically if you’re going to make those key hires in your 2nd, 3rd or fourth ways of hiring, these hires are super expensive if they go wrong, and what they do extremely well. I think at least at meta is trying to minimize this error, basically to a minimum, I guess. Something else that’s important, maybe let’s jump.

Thomas Kohler:
A bit into the freelancer topic, because then you were a freelancer, then you were at meta, but you were not a freelancer there, and then you get back into freelancing. And when I just look at your LinkedIn, you then directly went into an SVP role of sender, which is also not a small name, right? So I think sender is a hot company, also a unicorn, and they are doing a lot of things right. And I also know some people from there, so it’s like that they professionalized while growing up, right? So how did you end up there?

Leslie Kivit:
Yeah, so the reason why I went back to freelancing, so I actually started my own company. So it’s a gmbh, so it’s not entirely freelancing. But I think principle is the same is because I think many large organizations that I worked for, so at booking and also at meta, I often felt that it was hard for me, I think, to influence certain situations where at other startups it was more easy for me. And I often felt that everybody wants you to do better, but not often better than themselves, right? And that’s an environment that I find not great. And I felt that while getting more experience, I actually wanted to be that person that would want also people to be better than me. And helping them actually also to get there. So I also feel like if you think that you know things better, then you should probably just start your own company and figure it out yourself. So that’s basically one of the reasons also why I moved back to starting my own company.

And yeah, my first gig after meta was with Sender. I actually started there first to help the team with doing ta because I think there was already a good, I think also functional team.

Thomas Kohler:
But how did you get the contract? Because I think that’s for some freelancers, really important and hard as well. And that’s not a small contract, that’s something which was.

Leslie Kivit:
Yeah, I mean, when I joined Sender, I think at the time, I need to say this correctly, when I joined Sender, I think they were with about 200 people. So it didn’t, at the size that they have now, I think now they’re with 800 ft or something more than.

Thomas Kohler:
1000 even, I guess.

Leslie Kivit:
Okay, well, so at the time they were with about 200 folks and. I think I got there actually through, I think actually through my network. I think it was an old vitro. Thank you. An old for many things that you do, especially for the community, but I think it was on, I’m not entirely sure, but it was 100% through my own network. You also built products. Yeah, I think a big also contributor to that was my time doing rocket because you meet so many founders and you meet so many new people and. Yeah, I think it’s going back to that sort of origin story. Right. You have to try to put yourself into situations that are not so comfortable. And I do think that now it’s probably.

Thomas Kohler:
Especially as an introvert, right?

Leslie Kivit:
Yeah, especially as an introvert. But I think now it’s probably also been more easier because folks are more used to sort of digital communication and this was before the whole Covid thing happened.

So in person work was probably even more appreciated, I think, than now. But back then I think I already saw the power of networking, like how uncomfortable that might know for many, including myself. So I think I built that network there. When I joined meta, I felt sometimes that I was losing. That network was in another country, in Switzerland instead of Berlin. And yeah, that’s also one of the things I guess that bothered me a bit about working at a larger.org. Right. You have a bit more restrictions often because of pr restrictions and legal restrictions, right.

It’s not so easy just to go out and do a presentation somewhere because you might say something, right, that might undermine the company. So also keeping a network in terms of visiting events and speaking at events. Living in other country, I think made it a bit more challenging. And that’s why I’m so thankful, actually to people like Ni and also yourself, but also a few others, that you can also be distant friends. I guess it’s like a good word. So maintaining that network and asking, I guess also how somebody’s doing every now and then can really help you in getting the extra mile somewhere.

Thomas Kohler:
Okay. And now overall in freelancing, what is your pattern in getting, let’s say, these executive interim management deals? Because I think that’s something what is not so easy. You need to be available first. You also need to be relevant enough, and then you also need to set the expectations in the right way, that it’s also rewarding for you, but also feasible for the company to hire you. Right. In that way. Because a lot of companies are just opt out by default to it. Say, no, we all do everything internal.

And to a lot of, in many, many situations, this totally makes sense, but in view it does not. And therefore, I would like to get a bit of your understanding and your thinking.

Leslie Kivit:
Yeah, look, I think for me, there were a couple of ways on how I gathered that network, right? So it was by staying in touch with folks. And second, I think as an HR person, especially if you are a former recruiter, I think you have one superpower, and that’s sourcing. And sourcing is very similar as to sales, at least like the pre funnel cycle of sales, right, where you do lead generation, where you think about the messages that you’re going to send, like your multichannel approach. And that’s something that I’ve spent an awful lot of time on. Also, before we did the recording, I was just telling you about some things that I filled in, I believe, and massively. And also things that are seeming to go better. So sort of applying that skill of identifying companies that sound exciting basically to work for, and then actually seeing if in your network you have any sort of relations indirectly or maybe directly with a particular company is probably like a first step. I would start also when you’re thinking about expanding your business and.

Yeah, and basically building that on top of the existing network that you already have, there is also cold outreach. Right. Obviously. And I actually kind of forgot who said this, but it was a LinkedIn post, actually, that I saw recently of a person that said, this is not just for freelancing, but I think for applying in general, who said 30% of your time you should actually spent on sort of applying for jobs the other 30% you should actually spent on using your network and the other 40% you should probably just spend on cold outreach and making sure you build maybe a pitch deck for yourself that showcases the impact also that you had in the past. Maybe you have some exciting numbers, right, that you can share of befores and afters and then it will stick. But yeah, it needs to be personalized. It’s also a bit of a numbers game and yeah, and that’s my experience, I would say.

Thomas Kohler:
And what are your top learnings and challenges you overcome as an interim manager freelancer?

Leslie Kivit:
Yeah, I think from the sales part, I think sales and recruiting and also in HR is incredibly hard. Right. I think you are very dependent still on economical cycles. We are all part of this FIFO principle, right. First in, first out. That’s sadly, specifically within recruiting, how things work. And that’s also well reflected, I think, in your sales cycle. So if I look at my own efforts, November, December was pretty dramatic, and now we’re going into February, and it’s suddenly looking actually really good. So that’s just different.

Thomas Kohler:
In case you have any feedback or anything you want to share with me, please send me an email on thomas@peoplewise.com or hit me up on LinkedIn. And in case you really enjoy the show, please subscribe. I would really appreciate it.

Leslie Kivit:
So that’s one sort of challenge, I think, that I found.

Thomas Kohler:
And to overcome custody, it’s more the network, right. That it’s more strategic long term, checking in with people, giving updates, and just making sure that you have certain level of trust all the time. And then there is some critical event that is offering up an opportunity and then you should be there.

Leslie Kivit:
Yeah, absolutely. And I think also being patient. Right. Personally, I’m a pretty impatient person, and I would rather already like to ask this person, like, hey, why don’t we jump on a coffee? But, yeah, it’s likely that that person on the other line, on the other side of the screen, doesn’t have the same personality maybe that you have. So it’s better indeed sometimes just to wait a couple of days and let the message actually sink in or build a relationship first before you’re going for the. Before you’re going for the kill, basically. So, yeah, that’s absolutely a lesson. I think another one is, we already discussed, I’m a bit of an introvert, and I think specifically Covid at the time really took me like a huge step back.

I think Covid made me even more of an introvert maybe, than already was because there were no events. And I remember very well that there was an event in Berlin. Again, I think it was an event from, for, I think actually for her portfolio companies. And I remember I was going into the elevator and I was pinging my girlfriend and I said, I’ve never been at an event for the last two years. I don’t know what to do. Right. But yeah, anyway, the doors opened and then I already forgot that I sent this, basically. So I found it actually quite challenging to get back into this rhythm of sort of connecting and really getting yourself out there.

And what can really ground you, if there are other people that are going through a similar experience, is that the more effort you’re going to put into something, the more likely it will have an impact. And along the way, you can look at your funnel and you will tweak it, you will improve it, you will get much better at what you did. But it really starts with sort of putting energy in it, executing, stop with strategizing all the time. Just go do it. Exactly.

Thomas Kohler:
I think this is a principle that you need to use the advantages of the probabilities for yourself. Right. So that would mean that there is a relevant person out there organizing a relevant event, most probably. Then you just go there and you have nothing to lose because you have not been there anyway already. So why not going there? Right. And then if you’re there just talking to people and as you said, just being open to it, going with the flow, and just be lucky and increase the probability to become lucky, to just be positive, have a positive feeling about it, frame it in a positive way, make sure that you’re just aware of what you may want to get out of it, and then just act like that. And then I think it comes to you sometimes.

Leslie Kivit:
Yeah, absolutely. And then maybe a last challenge. And I think that’s like a consideration, I think, for anyone to make that is still in the interim business or is considering to go into this business. Sales is going to be part of your work, if you like it or not. And I think you might come at the stage where you’re like, hey, I’m really sick and tired of doing the networking because I got a family or I got other things to do that I find more important. That’s really something that you need to keep in mind, because if you won’t do your sales on top of doing your job also really well, because that sells automatically, you’re going to have a tough time because there will be months for months, there will be years for great economical opportunity. And there are ones that are not so good, for example, now.

So that’s really something that you need to keep in the back of your head. And then more like, from an in person experience. Sorry. From an in company experience, as an interim person, it means that you will need to leave. Right. At some point, and the company might be super exciting. I guess that’s it. Yeah. You need to leave. And what that sometimes also means is that you won’t be able to see the entire cycle, basically.

Of that strategy that you thought of or that you implemented. And I’ve also been in situations where I was actually talking to a client who was considering to hire an interim person. It was the first question that he asked. Is it like, look, you’ve rarely worked somewhere for four years, right? So how do you know if a strategy actually plays out? And that’s a fair question, right? Yeah, I think that’s something that you would need to consider when you are moving into an intermole.

Thomas Kohler:
Cool. I think we don’t have time for another topic like social engineering, but maybe we can do another episode on this because I like to keep it 30 minutes.

Leslie Kivit:
Yeah, sure.

Thomas Kohler:
Leslie, thank you so much for your time. And maybe schedule another one on social engineering, because I think that’s a very interesting piece, and you saw a lot from it already, and we can do this in the next episode. Thanks so much.

Leslie Kivit:
Thank you so much. Cheers.