How TA shapes candidate experiences with Laura Wilkinson

Yeliz Castillo:
And how was it for you to go back this early? I think because usually, you know, most women choose to stay, like a whole year. Looking back, would you say that was the best you could have done, or would you rather say it would have been better maybe to stay a bit out longer or obviously, depending on the circumstance of why you went back this early? But how do you feel about that? Like, going back early?

Laura Wilkinson:
Yeah. So, honestly, I loved going back to work. I really did. I really felt like as a mum, I actually came into my own when I went back to work. It also coincided with when I was, you know, we were really making good headway with, like, weaning our daughter and she was eating, you know, lots of solids and so, like, making her food. Me going back to work, I just felt like, okay, this, this is the new normal for me maternity leave. I was always very clear with myself, it was temporary. And I think that this is a mistake that a lot of people make in that they, they forget it’s for a temporary period of time and then it hits them like a ton of bricks when it’s time to go back. Whereas if you’re okay, this is financially how long I’m going to be off for.

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Yeliz Castillo:
Hello, everyone. Today’s episode is with the lovely Laura Wilkinson, who is the global Head of Talent at Intent HQ. But she’s also a working mom, a very successful career, and we have a very great topic which is exactly that, that we’re going to talk about today. Welcome, Laura. So nice to have you. I would love to start with the question of why this topic is important to you.

Laura Wilkinson:
Yes, I think that it’s important because it’s a hard adjustment for people who are either going back to work following mat leave or people who have been back at work and the world is, you know, this whole return to the office topic is, is ever changing and so it’s just really about, just in my experience and my journey, things that have helped me adjust, make sure that I feel like I’m being, you know, the best employee I can be and also the best mom. And. Yeah, so I thought I might have some useful insight to just help people get their, their head round what is a constantly changing landscape and a lot of pressure for people, you know, whether you’re working mum, working dad, whatever, it’s. It’s hard. So hoping to just help get some ideas for people to make it a bit easier.

Yeliz Castillo:
Really great. Thank you. What would you say were the biggest challenges for you?

Laura Wilkinson:
I think it’s when you, you feel that you’ve got your childcare plan sorted and then, you know, life happens and you need to quickly, you know, reorganize what you’re doing. So for me it was, I was really lucky when I initially came back, which was six and a half years ago now. But my, both my mum and my mother in law were splitting the childcare so it was, it was great. My daughter was only seven months old at the time, so she was very young and, and I didn’t love the idea of, of sending her to nursery that young. So I was very lucky. But then my mother in law got very ill and she did pass away. And so it was a, you know, quick review, you know, find another solution. And of course wait lists on nurseries now can be years long, you know, at least probably a good few months.

So that was really hard. When you feel like you’re right, okay, I, this is our routine. And then something happens which, which kind of leads me on to the first tip which would be that everything’s very transient. So things are always going to change. Your child is going to get older, fund levels of funding change, your circumstances will change. And so it’s always about not getting too attached to a particular routine or setup. You constantly need to be open to rolling with, with what might come at you and, and, and being flexible, flexible around that. So yeah.

Yeliz Castillo:
Okay. And so first of all, I’m sorry about your mother in law’s loss. Obviously I can imagine that this must have had like a big impact on your family. Of course. But then I think sometimes what we really forget as a society is like this big change. I mean it’s all positive of course to have a child, but then it has also some negative sides, I guess, especially as a woman, you know, or like it doesn’t have to be negative, but it can be difficult because you have to adjust to a new chapter. You have to adjust to your body, to your new body as well. And you have to adjust to all the changes that happen. And then of course there is also this other outside world where, where also things can change like the loss that you experience. How would you say, can you get over that and deal with all that change? I guess.

Laura Wilkinson:
Yeah and it’s, I wish I could say it’s really easy and it doesn’t take a toll on you in, in some way shape or form, but it is, you know, you will go on a roller coaster. Is, is the honest answer. Again, in, in my experience, I think that things that you can do, especially as a woman and I’M saying that because of you’ve mentioned, you know, your body changes etc. Etc. And if you are going back to work, you know, like I say, I wasn’t even seven, eight months past labor when I went back. Which if, if there’s someone in the US listening to this, they could be going back as early as a month. Like it’s crazy over there return. I, I can’t imagine that.

So it’s really, it is genuinely important that you prioritize finding a way of doing the things that make you feel like yourself. I’m not going to say prioritize self care because I, I think that that’s so easy to say. And when you’re on potentially a very low hour hours of sleep, you’ve got a job, you, you want a, a life as well. But if it’s, if it’s going to the gym, if it’s getting up before everybody else to sit downstairs by yourself and have a coffee just in a bit of quiet. What, whatever these, these little glimmers that you can start to add into your day, you’ve got to be, be realistic about it. You’re probably not going to go for a spa day every week. You’re probably not gonna just be able to whiz off on a Saturday for three hours, you know, and do whatever you want. So it’s all about a realistic fitting things in where you can that just give you that half an hour sat down quietly or whether it’s meditation, reading your book. I used, it.

I used to love doing a word search. So my thing would be I get my little word search book and just have like a coffee and just, just those little moments throughout the day that just, just allow you just to kind of breathe and then go into the next thing that you’re going to be doing. So it’s hard but you, yeah, you need to prioritize yourself because if you go down everyone goes down.

Yeliz Castillo:
Yeah, for sure. And how was it for you to go back this early? I think because usually, you know, most women choose to stay like a whole year. Looking back, would you say that was the best you could have done or would you rather say it would have been better maybe to stay a bit out longer or obviously depending on the circumstance of why you went back this early. But how do you feel about that? Like going back early?

Laura Wilkinson:
Yeah. So honestly I loved going back to work. I really did. I really felt like as a mum I actually came into my own when I went back to work. It also coincided with When I was, you know, we were really making good headway with like weaning our daughter and she was eating, you know, lots of solids and so like making her food. Me going back to work, I just felt like, okay, this, this is the new normal for me maternity leave. I was always very clear with myself, it was temporary. And I think that this is a mistake that a lot of people make in that they, they forget it’s for a temporary period of time and then it hits them like a ton of bricks when it’s time to go back.

Whereas if you’re okay, this is financially how long I’m going to be off for. The reasons for me returning are probably not right, as in, I, I didn’t want to be forgotten about. So I worked to get to a certain level before I even tried for a baby because I was like, right, I, I want to get to this level knowing that that means when I am back, I’ll have a bit more autonomy about how I manage my day.

And I did rush back because I didn’t want to be forgotten about and replaced, which was probably more in my mind than the reality of the situation. And I used to love it. So I’d get back, I, I do, I’d get in early so I could get out, you know, a bit earlier. And I used to love that half an hour before anyone else got in and I’d have a coffee, might get my word search out. And I just have like 20 minutes of just, of just peace and quiet. And it was funny one day actually, because somebody asked, there was, there was a group of us that had gone on mat leave and came back at around the same time.

And I, I was thinking, am I, is there something wrong with me? Because everyone else kept like going into the toilets to cry and just really upset and I sort of said, oh, no, actually I, I quite like it. And then, yeah, one of my colleagues said, that’s because you’re a horrible mum. And oh, I’m, I mean, she may have been joking, but it really cut like a, you know, and you think, am I, am I a horrible mum? But I’m, I’m not, I’m, I’m a mum who wants to work hard so that my daughter has a good set up. And if I, my attitude was and is, if I’m gonna get up and leave you, it’s gonna be for the best possible money, like return on investment for me.

So crying in the toilets isn’t going to help with that. So. And I’m not You know, I. I’m not knocking anybody who does have a. Have. Have a little cry. But again, for me, it was just, this is the new normal. There’s no point fighting against it. Embrace it and see, well, what can I actually enjoy? What can I look forward to? Having that little bit of quiet time, you know.

Yeliz Castillo:
For sure. And I think there, I mean, there is, I think, a balance to everything, right. Like, if he would just like, chuck your child somewhere and you wouldn’t care for it and wouldn’t care and just go to work and blindly and, you know, kind of shut down everything else, then I think that’s a. That’s also questionable. But I think if you, you know, have really the goal to be the best version of yourself for your child, then your child will benefit way more of that than. Yeah. You know, losing yourself and everything and, and kind of being unhappy with yourself. So I think there is really this narrative in society that, you know, once you have a child that you have to kind of give up your whole life and there is no way back.

And, you know, and you just live basically for your child, which I think is completely wrong. I think, you know, obviously you have to care and your child should be your main priority because also it’s very dependent on you. But at the same time, if you want to help your child, you need to look after yourself as well in the best possible way, as you said, with those little things that, I don’t know, taking your five, ten minutes in the morning and just having a quiet coffee or whatever it is that gives you peace of mind. And I think this is a really great message that, you know, we shouldn’t also be judgmental to anyone. Right. Like if anyone chooses to do a certain thing, you don’t know what a person goes through until you actually live what they live. So I think saying that to someone is not the way forward to support each other as well, you know, especially when you go through something very similar. So I’m sorry that you had to experience that.

Laura Wilkinson:
Yeah, and in my experience, I mean, I. I’ve worked with some truly amazing women so far in my career, genuinely, and actually the ones who, to what you’ve just said around, you don’t know what someone’s going through. I’ve known people to be going through literally life or death like that. They’re. They’re ill, they’ve got serious stuff going on and they show they’ve showed up not, you know, they’ve taken the time they’ve needed, but they’ve showed up and they’re not, they’re not showing, they’re masking a lot. And so when you say things like that to people, oh, you’re a horrible mum or oh blah, blah, you don’t know what’s going on for, for anybody. And so I think that yeah, you’re best to just, just, yeah, just be respectful and be, just be kind. Just, just be kind.

You really don’t know what’s going on. And that’s why, you know people who are upset when they return to work. I know I had a little cry. I, I went into the, the shopping center on, on my lunch break that day and a, and a baby went past in a push chair and, and cried. But the, the sound was like no, you feel like it’s your own child and, and I did have a bit of a moment where I welled up but again it was, it was a bit of a snap out of it. Like you, you’ve got to, you’ve got to come to work because you got a mortgage and all the rest of it. And also I had this kind of hang up about you’ll come back in a year and you’ll get passed up on promotions and stuff. And so yeah, I just, I just adjusted to it.

And equally your, your children pick up on everything that you’re feeling. They, honestly I, I, before I had a child I used to probably think, but honestly they are so in tune with you. And my daughter, she, she settled into nursery when we eventually had to send her to nursery and I, and I have to say I really do feel for people who at six months old, nine months old are having to leave their child at a nursery five days a week. That must be really tough. And so I, you know, I’m not judging the emotional state of people. I was lucky that I had my grand, the grandparents help him. But when we did eventually have to go into nursery with, with my mother in law passing away, we, we were like inside I was, you know, I was, I hated the idea of it but to her it was, this is going to be so exciting for you. And, and after literally two days she, she’d skip in and she was fine.

If you’re trying at the door and almost apologizing for sending them to nursery, they pick up on that and then they really struggle with it. So it’s just about, you know, again, what are the positives of sending your child to nursery? There’s loads and loads of positives. So just really focus on those would be my advice.

Yeliz Castillo:
Yeah. And how would you say like, where did you get the strength from? How did you go through those, you know, moments like with your child obviously crying and leaving it and kind of, you know, switching your mindset, I guess to the more positive outlook of the situation rather than the emotional side.

Laura Wilkinson:
Yeah, I would probably use the air hostess analogy. As in if you’re on a plane and the air hostess looks nervous. You’re gonna start bricking it.

Yeliz Castillo:
So, so true. I do that too.

Laura Wilkinson:
So I was like, if she sees me looking all upset and walking away crying. And I did cry when I got in the car. Of course I cried when I got in the car. But as far as she was concerned, you’re gonna have the best day ever. They start to make their, although they’re only little, they, they start to, they do start to make connections and friendships. And the staff at the nursery I sent her to were brilliant. I, I, I was again it was a great nursery and I was proud that because I’m working hard, I’m able to send her to, to this nursery. So yeah, it was, it was that my choice to go back to work quickly and thank God I did because had my mother in law, obviously she passed away, had I have been off longer and not been earning money and then had to put her straight in a nursery, it would have been just a disaster. I probably wouldn’t have had the pick of the bunch. So yeah, focusing on just re really putting my daughter first and thinking how, how’s she feeling and if I act a certain way she’s going to gauge and that’s how she’s going to feel too. So just about just smiling, smiling through.

Yeliz Castillo:
That’s great. No, I agree. I think it is all about, you know, looking at the bigger picture and not being in the moment. And I know this is all easier said than done. I mean I don’t have a child yet, so I obviously can’t necessarily relate in that sense to that emotional attachment that you have. But I guess just generally to try to keep the bigger picture and a general positive mindset is the way forward in these things, especially when you’re figuring it out and you don’t know. I guess it’s easier with a second child when you then have gone through it once all and you know, you kind of know how it all goes and how it can end up. But I think the first child is really like where you also learn to be a mother or father for the first time.

Right. You, you may be, I don’t know how old you were when you when you first became a mum, but you can be 40, become a mom, but then you’re still, if your child is one year, you’re still one year old as being a mother. Yeah. You know, and I think people also forget that a lot. So. Yeah, yeah.

Laura Wilkinson:
And then, and you know, that’s another, you know, you’ve hit on another interesting point. So I’ve only got one child again, parents with two. Then, then they hit this, this, this new thing where one’s at school, one’s at nursery. You’ve got to get to work. It’s really hard. It’s really hard. So for me it’s approach a, try and approach it when you’re not emotional, when you’re in a rational frame of mind and get your notepad out and be like, right, these are the fixed, these are the fixed things we need to do. They need to get there, he needs to get there and I need to get there.

And then, okay, option A is and, and approach things quite pragmatically because what I see a lot with my friends and, and you know, some people in my family is they get very wedded to. I only want to do this, I want to do the office on these days, I don’t want to do this, blah, blah, blah. And you think you, if you’re going to be that rigid, it’s going to be hard to feel happy with whatever solution you come up with. Some things are fixed if your employer is saying you have to be in the office X amount of days a week again. So that’s one of your fixed. We have, you know, we have to work around this. But where can I be flexible? Is there a conversation I can have with my boss where I just can’t do that? But what I can offer is this and, you know, a reasonable approach. Yeah, you just have to really try and get creative in how, how can we make, how can we fit everything in that we need to do basically?

Yeliz Castillo:
Yeah, yeah, totally agree. And how would you say, like, how much of a role does your workplace play here? Like, obviously there’s so much that you can control and plan and do, but then as you just said, obviously you have to be kind of flexible but then also kind of have the agreement. So how would you say it plays that role?

Laura Wilkinson:
It’s a really good question and I’ve, I’ve been very lucky on this one. So when I originally went back, it was 2019, so it was before pre BC, it was before COVID and it was in the office every day and no one ever really knew any different that that was, it was. So I’ve almost had the luxury of the hardest, the hardest part. I only had to do that for like a year and then I think we went into lockdown. Then we were all working remotely, which had its challenges. Now we’re at a position where we are encouraged. I mean, I, I work in a different company now and I’m in London, so it is far more of a commute. So it’s, you know. Right.

You need to try and get into London two, three days a week. It’s not my, you know, it’s not the easiest thing, I’m not gonna lie. It, it’s, it has its challenges. It has a cost attached to it in the. Okay, I need a child mind. I don’t currently have a childminder. I’ve, I’ve managed to manage just through being flexible. But the workplace, it does pay, play a huge part because you need to be reasonable on both sides.

So if you, if, if you’re not saying you should be grateful, but if, like me, you have a boss who gets it, she’s been there, she’s got two kids, she knows, she knows what it’s like. She gives me a lot of flexibility. But I have to be absolutely respectful and responsible with that because if you start taking the mick, people might go, well, you know, so you need to be, it’s just give and take. It really is give and take. And, and for employee employers, the loyalty that you get back when you are again, being reasonable, whe, whether it’s that you’ve got working parents working for you, you’ve got people who are also caring for an elderly or a sick parent, dog, what, like whatever it is the loyalty that you get back as an employer. So it’s all give and take. So I have been very lucky in that area, I have to say.

Yeliz Castillo:
Yeah, that’s really great. For sure. I 100 million percent agree. I think it’s definitely a given and to take. First of all, it can hit anyone, Right. I think it doesn’t matter what your position is. You can be hit by life in any kind of way. And you should always try to understand the other person, you know, from that humanity side.

But then at the same time, if someone then gives you that trust and gives you that flexibility, you also have to make sure that you don’t use that and, you know, you showcase your appreciation and your gratitude by giving back with, you know, the skills and yeah. The trust that you’ve been offered, you know, kind of back. I think that’s that’s so crucial for people to understand that there has to be a balance and if you want certain things that you have to also give certain things. And yeah. And then this is how we can move forward I think in a very crazy time where, you know, it has to happen that both sides have to work. The woman and the man or you know, like both partners, doesn’t matter. Woman, man, but both partners have to work if there’s a child involved and them. And there has to be some sort of a compromise from a company’s perspective, but then also from the person for sure. I totally agree.

Laura Wilkinson:
And I’ve seen it. I was thinking about this as I was commuting in this morning actually because I. And I was thinking, God, I have worked with some, with women who before they’ve had children have been merciless on working parents. So, you know, I used to work with a lady who, she had zero tolerance for anybody saying, you know, I, I’m really sorry, I need, you know, I’m going to have to leave. I’ve had a call from the school and my daughter’s just banged her head and I’ve got to take it away, whatever. And we, you know, if you’re someone who every other day there’s a problem. This is what I mean about being responsible with, with any ability because some people will just make these things up, quite frankly, so that go home and it’s. And it’s you.

You know, when people are doing that and when it’s genuine. I’ve, I’ve worked with women who have been totally unforgiving, but then the minute they’ve had a child themselves, everything changed, everything changes. And, and that’s what I mean where you just think on both sides, be responsible and respectful with the flexibility but also be, be compassionate and understanding because like you say, whether it’s having a child, whether it’s, you know, anything can happen, just be. If the person is delivering good work, just back off. Like let, let them do it in a way that works. If the productivity is there, then who, who really cares how it’s getting done. It’s getting done, don’t… On both sides just be respectful is what I think people need to, to do more of.

Yeliz Castillo:
I mean that’s a very good point. I think there is. This is a topic in itself actually with the whole flexibility thing. But I just want to say one more thing. I read, remember I worked once with a very lovely person and she had a. Not a newborn, but he was, I think one or like one and a half. So he was still quite small. And she.

Obviously we were fully flexible and she was saying, like, you know, I can’t do much during the day because I’m taking care of my child, but I’m very productive and I do exactly the same work from the afternoon to the evening when my husband comes back and, you know, he looks after the child and I can just go into the office and just do my whole work. So I think also the times sometimes are flexible. Right. This whole 9 to 5 kind of situation has to sometimes be put upside down because if you show that flexibility and that trust, then you can still get the same out of someone who is caring for someone, but just on their terms, know if they really do still deliver the quality and the work. So, yeah, I. I think again, it goes both ways. Well, thank you so much for your input and yeah, your story. I find it quite inspiring, actually.

All the things that you told me that you did and how you handled it, and I think it’s very inspiring to also have that kind of a strong mindset. So. So I’m pretty sure it’s going to be inspiring to a lot of other people, too. I would have one more question, and that is, what would you say is your top three tips to someone who is maybe becoming a mom and worrying about that or is now just about to go back to work? What would be your three top tips?

Laura Wilkinson:
Yeah, kind of a person. So hopefully I’m not repeating myself, but a re. Yeah, a recap on what we’ve said, I guess. So look for the positives. Always look for the positives, I think. I think there’s like a Buddhist saying that happiness comes from accepting. So except you, if you have to go back to work because financially or whatever reason you have to go back to work, try and find some. Some stuff in there that’s positive because you’re just going to have a far easier time if.

If you’re like, you know what? I’d rather be at home with my kid, but by going to work, I can abcd. So think about positives. It would definitely be. Get the facts. So, okay, I’m a couple of months from going back to work. What, what days do I need? What, what can I do? What can’t I do? And really make that list of what’s movable and what’s fixed so that you can build your plan around that, not just expect to sort of go back day one unorganized and just be in total whirlwind. So that would be the second one and then my third one would be. From a practical point of view, don’t leave things to the last minute in, in all aspects.

So if you’re going to need a nursery, get on it as early as possible. Because when you, when you’re asking people, can, I need, I need to start nursery in a month, you’re gonna have trouble. There’s wait time. So be organized. Even down to don’t pack the bag in the morning, get home from work, have your dinner, and then just spend 15 minutes, pack, just have everything ready. Because then in the morning, you can get up, you can get ready, you can leave the house. There’s not all this chaos unfolded with, you know, three people trying to get out the house at once. Yeah, just be organized.

And if that means you need to get out of bed 40 minutes before everyone else, once you’re up, you’re up. There’s. There’s something really quite magical about that little bit of time when the sun’s coming up and no one else is around. And set yourself up for a day of just being nice and calm. So be organized, look for the positives. And I can’t remember what I said on the second.

Yeliz Castillo:
And get the facts, no?

Laura Wilkinson:
Get the facts.

Yeliz Castillo:
Great. Thank you so much for your time, Laura. I really appreciate all your inputs and, yeah, all the best to you.

Laura Wilkinson:
Thank you so much.