From Agency Recruitment to Internal Recruitment with Daniel Hanlon

Yeliz Castillo:
Today’s guest, Daniel Hanlon. Hi, Dan. So nice to have you here today.

Daniel Hanlon:
Thank you for having me. Liz, great to speak again.

Yeliz Castillo:
Yeah, of course. Yeah. Today’s topic is actually, I think, a very special one because it’s something that I have experienced as well and I’m really excited about it. So we will be talking about going from an agency recruiter or like from the agency recruitment world into the internal talent world. And yeah, first of all, I would love to know why this is an important topic for you.

Daniel Hanlon:
Yeah, of course. And yeah, definitely one that I’m very excited to speak about today. It’s, I think it’s such an important topic for me because I feel like it’s been key or one of the key elements of why I’ve been able to experience success in my current role. Also, when I was in agency, there was almost this kind of worry about moving in house because it was looked at like, oh, if you can’t hack agency recruitment, then you move in house. And I think definitely over the last couple of years or so, there’s been a significant change in the market in that. So I really want to help show people that maybe are in agency or have agency experience just how much they can use that to really help them, you know, be the best that they can be in their roles.

Yeliz Castillo:
Yeah, totally. So would you say is like the difference between an agency recruiter and an internal recruiter?

Daniel Hanlon:
Yeah, really good question. Well, at the basic level for agency, you’re working with a number of different clients to be able to fill, you know, a number of different roles. Unless you’re specialist in a specific area with internal recruitment, you’re working for one business and you might even become more broad in terms of the roles that you recruit for or perhaps even more specialized. It depends on the size of the talent acquisition function that you would be going into and the size of the company as well. But, you know, you, in agency, you build strong relationships with your clients and you will, you know, hopefully work with them a number of times, but you’re not actually in the business. Whereas internally you’re recruiting for people that you’re going to be working with or at least next to on a daily basis and kind of building the company from the inside out.

Yeliz Castillo:
Yeah, it’s very interesting. Like, I, I, and this is maybe my narrative. Right. But I do feel like if you start off as an agency recruiter, once you’ve done that, you can work pretty much in any kind of environment. Right. When it comes to the challenge. And I think this is Like a stigma. That’s not just my opinion, but it really comes like from the experience itself, but then also, I guess from the pace. Right. And I’m not saying there is no pressure. There’s no, like, yeah, no, no fast pace in internal recruitment. But what’s your take on the difference when it comes to KPIs or just the pressure generally?

Daniel Hanlon:
Yeah, And I think, you know, a lot of things are the pressures that you put on yourselves. If you’re in agency recruitment or have come from that, you’re typically going to be quite ambitious individual that likes to exceed targets because you’ve always had targets put in front of you. And I think that vice versa, the, the pressures are very different because you think about the KPIs that you have an agency hiring, it’s going to be a lot about, you know, how many people are getting to, to meet with the clients, how many people that you’re placing and, and the revenue that you’re bringing in from that. You know, I knew my quarterly target and I had a rough idea of how much I cost the business each year. So, you know, you kind of know what you need to do to keep yourself in that seat and to be able to overperform. Whereas, you know, on the, the internal side of things, it’s not revenue focused. You might be bringing on people who will generate revenue for the business. So it’s inherently more performance focused where the best metric that you can have is that someone’s going to have been there for a long time or continue to be at the company for a long time and be performing.

You know, the, the conversations that you have with a hiring manager where they say, oh, yeah, so, and so is getting on brilliantly, you know, is inherently that money in the pocket that you would have in or money in the business’s pocket that you would have had in agency as well. So different targets, same pressures. I’m very lucky. I don’t get put under much pressure in, well, in either of the roles that I’ve had. But yeah, I’d say it’s pretty much down to you on how much pressure you put on yourself, give or take the situation that you’re in, obviously.

Yeliz Castillo:
And would you say the transformation from an agency recruiter to interim is easier or the other way around based on the difference?

Daniel Hanlon:
Well, I can only, I guess, comment from going agency to internal recruiter, but I would say I think it would be if I was to forget all my agency experience and then go into an agency. I think the foundations that I learned in agency have made it a lot easier to transition into an internal recruitment role. The other way around may be slightly more difficult because of the even faster paced nature of the agency recruitment where you’re having to learn a number of different clients needs at all times and be able to inherently sell that to candidates in a great way so that they’re invested in it. And you have to know a lot of different roles in quite a lot of detail in itself. And I think doing it the other way around where you know all of that to then come into internal recruitment where you’ve only got one company that you need to learn the cell for and inherently, you know, if you’re enjoying yourself there, the sell comes naturally because it’s the place that you’re working and you want it to be the place where other people want to work as well and then you learn the roles. So there’s half as much in terms of role versus company split to learn in that sense.

Yeliz Castillo:
Yeah, for sure. I like, I remember when I transitioned from, you know, obviously we. The environment I’m working in right now is I’m going into internal companies but I’m, you know, from a third party provider. So I go and stay there for a couple of months and then change again. So I have been an interim recruiter for two years now, but in different environments. And yeah, what I do pick up is from the experience in different environments as well that the biggest advantage I think I had with transitioning to that and the experience as an agency recruiter was volume hiring. I think it really does help to pick up the pace and you know, provide the numbers in a short period of time on a higher volume volume. But then also at the same time I think quality, quality wise and this is obviously not something that I’m generalizing here now, but I do think quality wise when you go into an internal role, the quality of the work you do is so different from a relationship perspective. Right.

Because you build different type of relationships because those are long term and then also the, the, the pre work to get to a new role or opening and you know, everything around it is way more thought through than I would say in an agency world because again there is very fast paced. You get the details that you get. Sometimes you get the job descriptions from the client, sometimes you have to create them yourself. So you know, it’s way more different. What’s your take on, on those kind of differences in terms of, you know, the different types of hiring, Whether that’s volume or qualitative kind of hiring?

Daniel Hanlon:
Yeah, it’s interesting because one of the main differences we always talk about here is the fact of, in agency you can be working on a number of different roles. If you’ve got five or six roles on you realistically know, okay, I’ve got my top three that I will almost definitely fill and I can focus on those and the others I can hopefully find a candidate for. But then if I don’t, I don’t, somebody else is going to fill that role and it will go in internal recruitment. Nobody else takes that role off your hands. You know, the only way that role is going is if the, the business decides to put it on pause or you know, you fill it internally. So I’d say, you know, that is where the, as you say that the quality and relationship building piece really comes in because you can go through tough times with hiring managers where it’s just a tough market out there and you can’t find the right person. You know, I’ve recruited for roles that have taken six to nine months to recruit for and they’re always an urgent business need. And you know, I’m doing all I can to try and find that person.

The hiring manager is doing all they can to, to help me find that person. But when you form that great high quality relationship with that hiring manager, it is a team effort and you’re able to work together to do that. So, you know, I think volume could be the same across agency and you know, internal hiring, but as you say, is very much different in terms of the process of how you get there. The, the thinking that goes behind it before the role goes live and the, the resources you have to, to utilize to find that right person as well.

Yeliz Castillo:
Yeah, for sure. It’s so interesting, right? Like it’s. I remember when I first got into the agency world, obviously you didn’t, like, I didn’t know anything else. So to me this was, you know, the way, the way of working was so normal. Right. Like numbers driven, delivering the KPIs or hitting the KPIs or the numbers and then it would go for month to month and you would always like review the whole month. And you know, like the way of working was completely different. Then when I moved into internal recruitment, I felt like everything was a bit slower and then we, you know, took way more time to define the role or define the profile and it went into more almost like a consultative side as well.

Obviously you also do that in an agency and ideally you would, you know, consult your client and help and make sure that, you know, you Find the right profile. But I feel like you have way more input. Well, ideally you would have way more input in an internal world. How is your experience been with that? Do you feel that is the truth? That you also have way more hiring, right?

Daniel Hanlon:
Yeah, 100%. And I completely agree with you. I think the best agency recruiters, you know, they’re called recruitment consultants for a reason. People just forget the consultant that, you know, you are actually there to help advise because you should have some expertise in that industry to be able to help the client find that person or adjust what they need to be able to find the person that’s going to be able to do the job for them. But yeah, I think, you know, in house you’re in those conversations right from the briefing call right through to, you know, the, hopefully the role being filled in itself and everywhere in between. So the best internal recruiters are also, I like to call it a thought partner with the hiring manager. They’re, they’re able to kind of be on a equal footing with them and say, okay, well I know this is the exact profile that we’re looking for, but I’ve actually spoken to this candidate who I think takes a lot of different boxes to what you’re looking for and I really think it’s worth you seeing them. And you know, you build great trust with that.

You build a great feedback loop and it allows you to be able to kind of be vulnerable in a way of like I’m putting myself on the line for a candidate that, you know, you might not have seen. If it’s not for me saying you should see this person. And even if it doesn’t go as well as you would hope, you learn together as a kind of hiring group. And that’s what, that’s what I think is really key and does help and is maybe different to the agency side to help you be able to fill more roles with more high quality candidates internally.

Yeliz Castillo:
Yeah, totally agree. So what would you say are the biggest challenges then from going into an agency recruiter into the interim world?

Daniel Hanlon:
Yeah, is. It’s a really good question. I think touching back on what I said earlier around the roles don’t go away. You know, you’re not supposed to kind of let roles go away in agency either. But you know, I would challenge any agency recruiter to say whether they had, you know, done that exact same thing.

Yeliz Castillo:
That of course, exactly. Even grows as well. Right. Like there is so much happening and it’s so easy. Like I used to have a team. Sorry, I’m I’m cutting off your number. And, and you know, when we were growing, which happened obviously quite often or like quick as well, that you wouldn’t start sharing roles. And then, and if there’s someone who has an expertise, it’s very easy to then just be like, okay, you can take on this one and I do this or whatever. So I think that’s, I mean whoever says and the opposite thing would not be so close to the truth here.

Daniel Hanlon:
I agree and I would probably argue they don’t have enough roles on for that to be, if that is the case. But I think the, you know, what you end up having internally as a challenge is the fact that this role is going to be and it needs to be filled. And you can feel almost like you’re banging your head against a wall even with the best hiring managers in the world because sometimes luck is not on your side. You know, we all know luck is involved in recruitment. You could be in a very candidate driven market which you know is also working against you. But I think, I don’t know people, I try and be as optimistic as possible. I always think this role is going to be filled. You know, it’s, it’s, it’s not going to be here forever. We’re not going to be talking in two years time about this role that’s been going on for three, three years. It will get filled. You just have to bear with the process and make sure you’re doing all of the right things to be able to overcome that challenge.

Yeliz Castillo:
So what would be the top three tips that you could give someone if a hiring position or like position hiring doesn’t go too well?

Daniel Hanlon:
Yeah, I would say the first and most important thing would be to look at the process in itself. You know, look at internally at yourself as a talent acquisition manager in terms of, you know, who you’ve been speaking to and the, the stats that are going along with that process. So, you know, we have started to track a lot of our recruitment funnel. So how many people are coming through in terms of applications or sourcing? Yeah. How many people are getting through to a screening stage with me and then going through to a first stage with a hiring manager and you know, if I’m seeing a lot of discrepancy with loads of people, me sending loads of people to first stage with the hiring manager and then not getting through to the next case stage, for instance, then there’s something there that could be me misunderstanding the brief and not sending through the right person or you know, me not understanding the person that we actually need or the hiring manager, maybe their role requirements don’t quite meet the needs of the people that are actually out there in the market. So definitely first and foremost, look internally and, and then have a conversation with the hiring manager. You know, they’re going through that process with you. They are speaking to everyone that you’ve been speaking to and you know, understand from them what they’re seeing and, and why we don’t feel like we found the right person.

You know, I’ve had processes where there’s been good people that have gone through but haven’t quite made it the whole way through the process. And I’ve had a chat with the hiring manager and they say, well look, we have the luxury in this case where we’re not really settling for this person being 80% right, they need to be 99% right. And you know, that can kind of ease things for you. It does make it harder to find that person. But also you can be assured that you’re finding the quality candidates, but it’s just going to take that little bit extra to get the right person through. And then finally, I guess the last point would be don’t wait for this to happen. As soon as a role comes on, you’ll kind of know what your hard to fill roles are. And I think you should even do this with your easier roles to fill because they can always turn into hard roles if market changes or things with the company change.

So get ahead of it. And, and really, you know, I, I have weekly catch ups with my hiring managers and some weeks the catch up is there’s nothing new to update you on. We know where we’re at, let’s keep going from there. But having those constant check ins both in terms of the numbers that you’re hitting and also just a status update ensures that you’re ahead of any hardships. And when they do come up, you’ve got that open line of communication with a hire manager to be able to tackle that very quickly.

Yeliz Castillo:
Yeah, if I may add a couple of things as well, I think I have that also where I have roles. Actually I think the most challenging roles I had really in since I’m in the internal world and I, what I find really helps is also starting the role by sourcing with the hiring managers together, like really taking an hour or so in the very beginning to take the time and also obviously consult and explain to the hiring managers that this is really useful, this one hour and really go through profiles together so they see and get a feel for how the market is. And then also for you to kind of understand better what we’re really looking for. Because like 90% of the time, only when you start talking to people is when you and the hiring team really understands what they’re actually looking for. Right? Because sometimes you have an idea and you think, yeah, this is this and this and this is what I want obviously unicorn, you know, and, and, and all the perfect like attributes and skills and experiences. And then obviously, you know, you, you, you barely find those all in one person. So then it’s really about okay then kind of negotiating, okay, what’s really a must have and what’s a nice to have. So I think those things really happen when you do spend like maybe an hour or so in the beginning to source together and go through the profiles and really, really get the feedback.

It’s really important to have the thorough feedback also from the hiring team. And then next thing is also, I think that the, I call it frames of flexibility. So what do we put in our frame? What is really flexible? If we realize, hey, we need someone on site. But then are we flexible in terms of hours, are we flexible in terms of, I don’t know, commute or the days or you know, those kind of things that are really important in the market. I think, you know, to really decide, okay, are we flexible with the salary, are we flexible with the conditions for the role and so on. I think that’s very, very important as well. And what I also do find what helps as well is as you said, kind of reviewing the full process and really trying things out. I don’t think that one process for all roles is the right way of doing things.

Sometimes, you know, you need maybe more input from stakeholders when you want to fill a role. Sometimes you want to, I don’t know, put a case study in or sometimes you want to take one out. You know, I think it’s really about constantly reviewing the processes and the procedures you have just to make sure that you really have the needs for the role and the profile that you’re looking for rather than generalizing everything. Right. So yeah, I think if, if, if you have that. And also this is also something as an external recruiter that you know, you should be able to provide or consult companies on because it’s, it’s such a different market now, I think compared to how it was a couple of years ago where it was a way more employer driven market. Whereas in most sectors or kind of roles, I would say it’s definitely a candidate driven market. So yeah, I think Those are really the way forward.

Daniel Hanlon:
Yeah, I agree. I think, like, you know, just to add to that having. If we mentioned on the agency side, that’s what you should be doing to 100%. And on the internal. Internal side, knowing that you have the luxury to be able to do that is the important part. And I think that’s where the agency experience really helps is because obviously you want a lot of touch points with your client. You don’t want to be annoying, but, you know, if they feel like you’re working towards finding the right profile and you’re kind of keeping them updated on that journey, then. And they’re a part of that, then you’re going to form that great relationship. And I really feel like that is something that I brought there from agency experience. Gave me the confidence to be able to do that and implement it very quickly with my hiring managers in attendance.

Yeliz Castillo:
Yeah. You know what? In the very beginning, just at the end, I would like to add this as well. I always thought when I was on the agency side, I sometimes wondered, like, obviously I never knew the internal side. So I was like, it’s interesting. Like they have an internal team, but they still need so much support from an agency.

Daniel Hanlon:
Yeah.

Yeliz Castillo:
Being on the other side, I totally get why. Because as an internal recruiter, you’re so involved in so many stakeholder conversations, you know, procedural things that need to be changed or discussed or debriefs and all sorts that sourcing sometimes is really tricky, you know, and having the time. So I feel really the combination of both is like the best solution, especially when you have a lot going on and, you know, and you should really take on the consultation of an external recruiter as much as you as an internal recruiter can provide. So I feel that teamwork can really make wonders. Like, I’ve seen it now, being on both sides, what a difference it makes.

Daniel Hanlon:
Yeah. And there’s definitely a common misconception, at least from my perspective, that internal recruiters hate agencies. I love when I get to work with an agency because, you know, the reason why we’re going to an agency is either that it’s a specialist role that I’ve never recruited for and have don’t have the current knowledge to be able to recruit for that. So I need support on it, or it’s a. It’s a resource thing. It’s time. And I, as I say, the roles don’t go away, so, you know, they need to be filled and there’s no point putting the business in a tough spot out of pride. And I always want agencies to fill the role as quickly as possible because it just gets it off your plate. And obviously being on the other side of it, it’s great for an agency, too, to be able to do that.

Yeliz Castillo:
Time is money, right? Oh, yeah. Totally with you. So, Dan, my last question would be, what’s your top tip for someone who wants to go from an agency recruiter into an internal recruitment position?

Daniel Hanlon:
Yeah, I would say treat your internal recruitment role like an agency role. And obviously there’s a lot of things that you’re going to have to adapt with that. You know, you’re. You’re not going to be recruiting for many different clients, but you can view your individual hiring managers as different clients themselves because each of them is going to want different things, have different requirements, and be able to. Yeah, you have to work with them in a slightly different way, but also that ability to be able to really learn a company and sell a company and show your investment in that too. I think when you can talk to a potential, you know, candidate or talk to a candidate about the company you’re working with with a lot of passion and excitement, it really is contagious and it helps draw people into that company itself. So, yeah, don’t be afraid to use your agency skills. If you’ve got great training, it’s going to really help you.

And the confidence that you’ve had from being that consultant and being able to really back a candidate that is slightly different, but, you know, could be a really good fit. That will be key when you’re working with hiring managers as well. So, yeah, use your agency experience, for sure.

Yeliz Castillo:
Totally agree. I think become a hybrid from both. And it’s funny that you say that actually with the client, because in the very beginning, I remember when I would say, you know, like when I switched up, so I would tell my husband, I’m like, oh, I have to. I have an meeting with my client. And he’s like, hey, I thought we don’t work with clients anymore. Sorry. I mean, the hiring managers. So it’s funny that you say that. I just remembered I used to do that all the time, because it does take a difference. But you’re absolutely right. I think you do have to, you know, view it just with the same sensitivity of this is my client, this is my stakeholder, this is who I’m dealing with. I also see that from an HR perspective. Right. I think for hr, your customers are the employees. Right.

For us, it doesn’t matter whether you work in an agency recruitment. Sorry, in a recruitment agency or if you work in an internal team, your customers are the hiring teams, whether external or internal. So. Yeah, totally agree.

Daniel Hanlon:
Great.

Yeliz Castillo:
Thank you so much, Dan. It was lovely talking to you.

Daniel Hanlon:
No worries. Likewise.

Yeliz Castillo:
Yeah, all the best to you.

Daniel Hanlon:
Thank you. Thanks, Liz.