Individualizing the Workplace with Björn Kastl

Thomas Kohler:
Today’s guest, Björn Kastl, CPO of Mytheresa.

When I look into LinkedIn insights, labor market reports, for instance, for certain functions, of course, compensation is top three, like sales functions. It’s money driven, yeah. But what I see way more is often that also support of a manager or supportive management is really climbing up in terms of what’s an employer value proposition that talent is demanding to change jobs or that would also leave jobs if it’s not there. And I think that’s a very interesting point, what you brought up. So I definitely agree.

Björn Kastl:
And I guess one other point, Thomas, is that what’s really a trend, and that’s in a way pretty interesting that we are not reading that so often, but is the kind an individualization of the workplace? What I mean with that is, I guess we all grew up in a world where we can do a lot of individualized things, but there is one place in that world that is still sticking on policies, pressing people into patterns, trying to do everything that has nothing to do with individual. You are having the same job as the person who is sitting next to you, all of that. So in the field of work, we are trying to press people into these patterns. So this is your job. This is what you have to do in a way that is in a way conflicting with nowadays approach of people, because people are saying that, listen, it’s me, it’s Björn, it’s Thomas. I’m coming across with knowledge that maybe the other has not. And by the way, I can also learn from the other. And the interesting point is, and that is why I’m so critical with all of these conversations that we can see in the press right now about four days week, about the very, very long running discussion about mobile work.

If four days work is something that I think could be interesting for some people if they interested in working just four days and having, for example, every Friday off, is that the approach for everyone? For sure. Not because I mean, there might be also people who only want to work until 04:00 in the afternoon, but also on a Saturday and all of that. And again, I guess one of the arrows that we are doing is we are trying to press people into these patterns, what is really needed. And that is one of the roles nowadays, but much more in the future of HR and also of people, managers and companies is to figure out individualized approach and trying to say that, listen, Thomas, so for you, I understand you have a second job or you want to do something as a freelancer, which by the way is also coming more often nowadays that people are not saying that. Listen, thank you so much for that one FTE that you are offering to me, but I’m not interested in one FTE working for you. I’m interested in working for you. Just 0.8 FTE. And listen, Thomas, I was in very interesting conversations in the past with young people who started in my department and I mean, I’m also old.

Yeah. So what should I say? Yes, I’m starting a conversation and was, in brilliant words, articulating the content of that work and fantastic what we can offer you. And the reaction was, thank you so much. I’m happy to take that opportunity over, but I’m not interested in working for you full time. And listen, for people like me, coming from that old thinking, it was that kind of, okay, what’s going on? Why is that person not interested in working full time for me? And then I was having that conversation with that candidate. And by the way, we fired her at the end because I was pretty, pretty obsessed exactly by what she was then articulating because she said, Björn, listen, fantastic to take over that role. But I am also interested in accelerating my second career as a coach. And for that coaching, I need at least one day free every, every week. And that person is 23 years old. And you think, okay, what’s going on?

Thomas Kohler:
Björn and I talked about the impact of the macroeconomic dynamics on HR, on a company that is going global, launching New York, Shanghai, and scaling from 250 or 300 people to around two to 3000 people. And also about the discussions of individualization, or not individually, say individualizing enough, and also making sure on how to provide the right work, set up workspace for different types of employee groups.

Thomas Kohler:
Today we have Björn here. And Björn was recommended by, she was also a guest on the show, CEO of West Wing. And she told me that, hey, you definitely also need to speak to Björn. And then I, I think I followed you on LinkedIn. I saw some posts and I also saw some posts with you together and Miriam. So maybe you can tell us also a bit how you are connected and what’s the storyline there. But first of all, welcome, Björn. And also give us a bit more context, maybe about yourself.

Björn Kastl:
Thank you so much, Thomas. It’s a pleasure to be here, by the way. Actually I’m following your show since a while. Thanks for having me and for inviting me to your show. And I was just wondering if you have proven that this is not a fake when you saw us together on LinkedIn. Me and also a big shout out to Miriam who was recommending me to be also in your show. Thank you so much. No, actually I mean I got to know Miriam due to my role here at Mytheresa.

I’m the chief people officer with Mytheresa. For those don’t know Mytheresa, that is an e commerce company in the field of luxury. We originally started back in the eighties with a long heritage as a company with having a department store here in Munich where we are also located today with our headquarters. And then we evolved into e commerce over time. So our founders were pretty brave in these 890s where they had that idea to why not shipping parcels to our clients and bringing the goods to them. So therefore long heritage. I think it was in the same year where Amazon started their business in Germany. Here you can see that they were pretty brave doing that in these days.

So no, I’m with Mytheresa since six years I have changed just names. They’re not my own name, but the name of my title as it is with growing companies and talking about growing the company. When I was joining Mytheresa had roughly 300 employees. So tiny, so very Munich centralized. We only had an office in Munich, then spread our wings over the time. And in the meantime we are counting a little bit more than 2000 people working for us worldwide with offices that we started in New York but also in Shanghai most recently in order to be more in the field of our clients and to serve them much better. So that is what I’m doing. And I’m very happy again that Miriam was recommending me to come to your show.

And just to tell you that story, Thomas, I’m a big believer into networking. I was always wondering, and I know that you are as well. And I was always wondering why, especially in the field of HR, maybe also in finance functions, people are so reluctant to reach out to each other if they are seeking help. And we don’t need to pre invent any new wheels if anyone else has done that before. I’m always saying, and I guess Miriam is on the same page, if someone is stealing in a good way, your idea, then it might be a good idea that you had. So therefore I’m a big believer into that. And I mean west wing and Miriam, they’re in the same field of e commerce.

Thomas Kohler:
But you know, but this is also something good that you then talk to each other. Because sometimes it’s also maybe, okay, could be competition. So while talking to each other, right.

Björn Kastl:
I mean, in a way, for sure it is competition. But listen, I mean, competition from a business perspective, just in very rarely. So because, I mean, west wing is more in the field of interior selling very nice stuff. In the interior field, we are more in the luxury field. You can rather say that maybe we can combine our businesses a little bit. So people who are very interested in buying nice interior might be also interesting in wearing nice clothes. But for sure, there is also an aspect of competition. As you said, competition means that for sure there are people leaving my trees are joining West Wing or the other way around. We can see that very often.

I was a bit surprised and there must be, say positive surprise that in the connection between someone like Miriam and me, but I also have some other connection in HR, also in the retail field and in other industries. I must be saying that I’m pretty happy that I only encountered people in my life who are doing or seeing that more in a positive way, would never be angry if someone out of my team would decide to join West Wing. Reason why is because, I mean, why should I? I mean, that is also a nice, very, very good company. And I know that the HR department is being led by someone who I really like. And so therefore, I guess that you don’t have to think about competition. So people are coming and going and pretty sure that we will talk about that. Also today we are living in a changing environment, in a changing employment market. And one of these aspects is if someone is leaving you, that person might be also coming back in the future. Why not?

Thomas Kohler:
Definitely. In case you like my show, please subscribe. I would really appreciate it. And Björn, I think growing from 200 and 5300 people to 2000 plus is very demanding, very challenging, and a lot of change is happening. And it’s also not common that one person is staying in the seat, right. Because sometimes people get hired above you because you just want to have maybe hired somebody that did exactly that growth stage in a previous company, like launching the US or launching China, whatever it is. Right. How did you keep up or did you have the experience upfront or what was the process there? Because I think that’s quite uncommon and it’s very great to see.

Björn Kastl:
Yeah, I mean, if you would ask me if I would have had any, all of the experiences that I had to need in the past for succeeding, to stay in that role, I must really say no. I mean, just pointing out that, I mean, we went live with an IPo in 2021. So, I mean, I haven’t had any experiences with a company in our, in our field and also not outside to make an IPo with a company, which is a hell of work, as those people who have done that before may know. But I mean, the point is, and that’s cultural aspect that I may have to point out, is that I think one of the reasons why I’m still pretty happy working with Maitreza is that, I mean, we are growing. People working with us are growing with the company. So the same as I am doing. And we have a very nice culture of, okay, let’s do it. Let’s try it.

So if we are failing, then let’s stay up again and try to prevent doing the same error again, but let’s do it together. So, therefore, if you would ask me if I have not experienced any kind of errors in my life, especially also in my. With a growing company, for sure I did a lot of errors, and some of them big, some of them small. Do you have some examples in terms.

Thomas Kohler:
Of within the people function?

Björn Kastl:
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, when I joined Mytheresa in the people function and talking about that little company that we have been in these days. So, as you can imagine, the department of HR was, in a way, in the same size. So when I was joining, HR had six people working in that department. So it was pretty easy, let me say it like that, to take over that role. Because in my previous company, I was also head HR, taking care of the dach region for a company that is in the field of strategy consultancy. And there I was also growing, but that was tiny. And I had whatever to people reporting into me.

So therefore, I said to myself, why not taking over that opportunity? Because, I mean, report having two reporting lines or six reporting lines does not make any difference. So right now, I mean, the people function or the HR department is having 48 people working here. So I was growing with that, and you were asking about errors that I made. So for sure, one of the errors was that I was always pretty ambitious when it comes to be, when it comes to be pretty near to the person working in HR, meaning that at the very first moment when I was joining, I had weekly, I had weekly dinners with people working here. So, therefore, I mean, pretty near. And you have to then realize then with a growing company and with 48 people in a department, you can’t do that anymore. And you also have to give up these direct, very personal alliance that you are having with the people. And for whatever reason, I thought at the very first moment in my new function here at Mytheresa, I have to be in a way, the best friends and the kind of an head of happiness for people working, especially in my team.

And then you can only fail because, I mean, if you would ask people around me if everything I’m doing is what they make them happy, for sure not. And that’s something that you have to realize, but that’s maybe part of my personality and I guess humans want to be liked from others. So in a way, so therefore I was in the same situation and I was growing with that position and also realizing that that’s no longer possible. And then you also have to give up. You can’t be in any aspect, in every detail anymore and have to give up and have to give up also accountabilities, which was not so easy for me to realize.

Thomas Kohler:
I think that’s often feeling contradictive, right? That it doesn’t feel right, but it’s exactly the right thing to do. So do you have some learnings you can share on how to do that?

Björn Kastl:
Yeah, I mean, I think one of the positive things that I was carrying with me over the time was that I was working for a company that was formerly a General electric company. And why I’m saying that is GE is pretty good since ever in project management. So project management is kind of core for them. And in every project that you’re running, you have at least one black belt project manager. And why I’m saying that is I’ve learned a lot about how to manage projects. I’m not saying that I’m always doing projects in a very brave and very good way. I’m not saying that, but I’m saying that for me, it’s always pretty important, at least for me, to have a kind of a one pager, and we used to have these one pages at GE where you are writing down what is the aim of a project, how is it being called, who is being accountable for it, who are the people working in that project, and what are the timelines, the goals that you want to reach also in an interim phase. And that is in a way really helping me.

So because I was really obsessed in a way to be in very, in every detail, yes. And when I was realizing I have to give up and give up also accountability, I started to have that, at least on my iPad, in order to get an overview on what we are really working on and who is the person that I can reach out to, and for sure also the company had to learn that in a way. And we are still on a journey for this because the interesting point is, if you are working for a company that is growing so much and you are the same person like it was with a company of 350, I mean, the interesting point is a lot of people are reaching out to me saying that, do you know something about that personal matter? And I said, we are 28 employees, so I can’t have an overview on every single employee that we are having. But we are still in that mood, which is an interesting aspect as a growing company.

Thomas Kohler:
And what were the biggest changes for you then in your role while growing, and when did this crazy expansion start?

Björn Kastl:
Challenges for the last six years first. I mean, and I’m pretty sure that a lot of people can talk about that, but I’ve been pretty happy that I’m working with a CEO that I’m reporting to who is a big fan of HR, I must say I was realizing that if we are growing like we are doing right now back in 2019, yeah. So really long time ago, then we can’t do that with just six people. And all of these are generalists, no structure. I mean, typical organizational charter for a company that has 300 people working there, but we are growing. And I was implementing a kind of a new HR structure, which is nothing new. I mean, it’s a kind of an HR service approach where you’re having HR coordinators, and I structured all of that. And thankfully enough, I was also being gifted again by a CEO who was saying that, okay, but we have to invest into HR, so therefore you can grow your team, otherwise it would have not been possible.

And exactly in that moment where I was very happy because everything was structured, thankfully enough, I’m still having a lot of very good people around me in the field of HR business, partnering and all of that. Exactly. In that moment, there was the COVID crisis, and I will not talk about that because I’m pretty sure that everyone can talk about that. But within the COVID crisis, where everyone was working from home and we’re trying to do our best to keep everything together. And as a company, that was for sure also an interesting moment, because in March 2022, every one of us thought, why should people still buy luxury goods with us if you don’t have the chance to go out? However, I mean, we have been one of those winners, if I can say so, of the COVID crisis. So therefore, from 1 minute to the other, we have to accelerate the full engine again in the COVID situation, realizing that business is in a very good momentum. And then in the same moment, we decided to make an IPO, which was back in 2021. So therefore, preparation of IPO together with an accelerating business with that momentum, where everyone has to work from home, and we haven’t had, as most companies had, absolutely no experiences with that. So that was also something that kept us pretty busy.

So therefore, with that IPO, which was an interesting moment, and we decided to go live in New York. So with the New York Stock Exchange, due to different reasons, but then you also realize, oh shit, there’s a hell of things to do with regards to sox compliance rules. So therefore, every capacity that you had shifted to HR was, and pretty busy with, oh, let’s understand the stocks compliance rules that we have to follow from now on. Therefore, very challenging. And most recently, for sure, the macroeconomical situation has changed tremendously. The mood of clients has changed dramatically. We are in a field where we are lucky to serve in top notch client area. So that’s a very good one.

But I can see that the mood has changed. And therefore, the ability for people to spend money for luxury goods has also changed in a way. So not so dramatically for top luxury buyers, so for them not, but for what we call aspirational buyers, it has changed. And I mean, all of that is happening. So therefore, if you are asking me, coming back to your question, what are the challenges? I guess it’s a long run of challenges and I’m pretty sure it will not end. So, because we are in an ever changing world and I’m in a way pretty curious, I must really say, what will happen when we are all realizing that we have to accelerate also employment again. So hiring more people than most of the companies are doing right now.

And at least then we will realize the shortage of labor in the market. And that will be an interesting moment. Pretty sure it will come next year or the year after, when the crisis hopefully is then over.

Thomas Kohler:
How do you see the current market situation in your daily business? How does it impact you?

Björn Kastl:
So financial situation or the overall very global situation with all of the crisis is something that is impacting us in that way that it has a business impact, as I was already talking about. But coming more from an HR perspective, what has changed is before COVID as a company who was hiring very international, with a global mobility that allows people to travel from one place to the other, that has a bit changed, I must say. So I can see clearly that people coming from abroad are sometimes not able to get a visa or work permit for Germany again, for whatever reason. So that’s changing. I have that feeling that the hurdles are higher than before. And the second thing is that, I mean, we are still pretty attractive as a market in Germany, but I can also see that the questions that we are encountering in our interviews with candidates, like, okay, I’m willing to move to Germany, but I’m not so sure because don’t know what the future will bring us that has. That has really increased. So therefore, there is a lot of reluctancy in the market when it also comes to labor. And I must really say I’m seeing the hurdles from a more administrative perspective as one of the challenges.

So we can see that in a way, what we felt is a globalized world is, in a way, feeling apart, is falling apart. I don’t want to over dramatically that, but hurdles are getting higher. So getting a work permit for someone who’s coming from China in Germany is a hassle. And this is something that we can’t afford to do. I must really say, as a country.

Thomas Kohler:
And do you think that this will change or do you see any improvements there? Because I think now what the startup for band I think achieved is that there is not a vet signature needed anymore for labor contracts. Right. Because this was also quite ridiculous initially, that in Germany you still need.

Björn Kastl:
Thomas. Yeah. So I guess that is, that was one of the most lucky, lucky days in the last 660 days or so. Yeah. So when I was reading that early in the morning on my mobile phone, I thought, it’s maybe too early. April. Choke. So that this is, this is, this is really happening. Yeah. Yeah. But for sure, I mean, there are clear signs going into the right direction. So talking about digital signatures, talking about also digitalization in the health fields. So these are a lot of positive signals. I would sometimes hope that we are taking the time to do that in a more efficient way. I mean, getting wet signatures or doing that electronically is easy to decide. There are some processes that are not so easy to decide, like we are experiencing that right now with the leave of absence or a doctor certificate in Germany that has been implemented not so long time ago, and it’s a disaster.

So because the server is not running, doctors don’t know what to do. And that sometimes that’s something that I’m seeing pretty critical because I was always pretty proud to see me in a world of very brave engineers around me. And now I’m realizing, I don’t know if that’s really well thought through, but I guess it’s going into the right direction. What we really can’t afford is to build barriers for those who are willing to work with us. Since ever since I’m working at Mytheresa, we are attracting people from everywhere. But the energy that we are investing into that has in a way not changed, which I feel a bit, that makes me a little bit nervous because that should have been changed knowing that especially Germany needs a lot of people coming from abroad working here.

Thomas Kohler:
Yeah, definitely. Especially in high demanding functions because I think that’s the problem, right. And I think there are a lot of people in Germany, but not all of them want to do the work that is demanded from the market.

Björn Kastl:
Absolutely, absolutely. And I mean we are attracting people from very, so from very specialized it jobs into logistic jobs where you have not had any kind of knowledge before. And the interesting point is hiring someone in the it, I mean that has changed a bit due to more people becoming available in the IT field. But hiring people in it had been as same as complicated as hiring people in logistics. Interestingly enough here, because most people will may think it’s easy to find people who don’t have any kind of knowledge and hiring them for logistics, but that’s not so easy at all, I must say. I mean in the meantime we are employing roughly 1000 people in logistics. So you can imagine what the turnover is in that field and that is one of the reasons why we are so busy with recruiting people.

Thomas Kohler:
Definitely. And what do you think can be the role of an employer to also make this easier or more accessible?

Björn Kastl:
I mean I have invested in the, in the past days a lot of energy into reading a lot of articles about AI. I will come back to your question in a second. But that’s as a forward why I’m saying that is because I guess if there’s a lot of potential in AI, so especially when you want to optimize some of the, of the HR work. So just talking about AI HR and pretty sure they are also very nice functions for finance for example, or for other functions. But what I really hope is that we can use AI to cut the efforts that we are investing into administrative tasks. And that would not mean automatically in my point of view that would lead to the release of people, just meaning that we can invest the release of those previously invested administrative work into more human work and why I’m saying that coming back to your question about what employers can do is what I can see is a lot of employers have been and still investing a lot into making the place of work a nice place of work. But in a way, coming back to we are all humans. So what I’m sometimes missing is that it’s that human clue.

So, I mean, every one of us are earning money, so it’s something that you can do with company A and that you can do with company B. There’s no difference. The only difference, and maybe also there’s no differences in benefits. So you can get the same benefits in company a and you can get the same benefits in company B. One of the big differentiators is someone taking care of me as an employee. I mean, attracting people is the first step, getting a, hopefully then digital signature the second, but for sure retaining those people in the company. Then at the third step and for retention.

My point of view is very simple. You are leaving a company if you’re no longer happy with your human environment. So could be your boss, could be people working with you, could be maybe also the content of work. That’s not so often, but that’s also something that is happening. But what I really hope is that we can use the power of AI to transfer this energy in administrative work into more the human work in human resources. And then I think we can be pretty good. Definitely.

Thomas Kohler:
And I think also when I look into LinkedIn insights, labor market reports, for instance, for certain functions, of course, compensation is top three, like sales functions. It’s money driven. But what I see way more is often that also support of a manager or supportive management is really climbing up in terms of what’s an employer value proposition that talent is demanding to change jobs or that would also leave jobs if it’s not there. And I think that’s a very interesting point, what you brought up. So I definitely agree.

Björn Kastl:
And I guess one other point, Thomas, is that what’s really a trend, and that’s in a way pretty interesting that we are not reading that so often of an individual individualization of the workplace. What I mean with that is, I guess we all grew up in a world where we can do a lot of individualized things, but there is one place in that world that is still sticking on policies, pressing people into patterns, trying to do everything that has nothing to do with individuals individualization. You are having the same job as the person who is sitting next to you, all of that. So in the field of work, we are trying to press people into these patterns. This is your job. This is what you have to do in a way that is in a way conflicting with nowadays approach of people because people are saying that, listen, it’s me, it’s Björn, it’s Thomas. I’m coming across with knowledge that maybe the other has not. And by the way, I can also learn from the other.

And the interesting point is, and that is why I’m so critical with all of these conversations that we can see in the press right now about four days week, about the very, very long running discussion about mobile work. So if a four days work is something that I think could be interesting for some people if they interested in working just four days and having, for example, every Friday off, is that the approach for everyone? For sure. Not because I mean, there might be also people who only want to work until 04:00 in the afternoon, but also on a Saturday and all of that. And again, I guess one of the arrows that we are doing is we are trying to press people into these patterns and what is really needed. And that is one of the roles nowadays, but much more in the future of HR and also of people, managers and companies is to figure out individualized approach and trying to say that, listen, Thomas, so for you, I understand you have a second job or you want to do something as a freelancer, which, which by the way is also coming more often nowadays, that people are not saying that, listen, thank you so much for that one FTE that you are offering to me, but I’m not interested in one Fte working for you. I’m interested in working for you. Just 0.8 FTE. And listen, Thomas, I was in very interesting conversations in the past with young people who started in my department and I mean, I’m also old. Yeah.

So what should I say? So I’m starting a conversation and was, in brilliant words, articulating the content of that work and fantastic what we can offer you. And the reaction was, thank you so much, I’m happy to take that opportunity over, but I’m not interested in working for you full time. And I listen for people like me coming from that old thinking, it was that kind of, okay, what’s, what’s going on? Yeah, why is that person not interested in working full time for me? And then I was having that conversation with that candidate. And by the way, we’ve hired her at the end because I was pretty, pretty obsessed exactly by what she was then articulating because she said, Jordan, listen, fantastic to take over that role. But I am also interested in accelerating my second career as a coach. And for that coaching, I need at least one day free every week. And that person is 23 years old and you think, okay, what’s going on? And that is changing.

So coming back to my point, we have to realize that these approach of offering full time, one fte approach in every excel sheet, I can see that is no longer the right approach for everyone. And this will change. And that is one of the reasons why I think we really have to make sure that we are offering a more individualized approach to everyone. And that will mean that maybe we will have people who are working then on a Saturday and not on a Monday. And that’s on that hand. And on the other hand, and I’m pretty sure that’s stressing everyone who is listening to that podcast. But I’m so sick of these mobile office discussions that we are experiencing right now because I guess there are a lot of very positive aspects in there. I can totally understand that a culture is not so easy to keep with people just working everywhere in that world. I totally agree with that. I can also totally agree the need of having more freedom from an employee side. But what I see is you can see two parties. One party is saying that I want to work from home and the other party is saying that, no, don’t get me wrong, but I want to control you. And these things, that’s black and white. There are so many scales of gray in between. And right now we are concentrating very much into these two different party approaches and no longer thinking about is there something that is in between? And that’s something that I find pretty critical right now.

Thomas Kohler:
Thank you so much. We are already, over time, really interesting. I think that’s a very good discussion. What will be interesting to see how it will develop. And I’m totally with you on that. So I’m also very much around individualization, but I also have a smaller company of 20 people. Right. So it’s easy. Thanks so much, Björn. Thanks for being my guest.

Björn Kastl:
Thank you so much, Thomas, for having me. Have a great day.