Navigating success in male-dominated industries with Milena Warner

Yeliz Castillo:
But I think the. The overall message here should be that we should work together and, you know, there should be support on both sides. And just because we’re women, we should not, you know, make a hype about not wanting to work in a male dominant industry, but rather try to find a change and a solution to make it better. Do you know what I mean? I think this is the way forward.

Milena Warner:
It doesn’t have to mean to be against the current. It can literally just be about balance and everyone playing to the best of their abilities, their potential, their talent. Bring to the table who you are exactly as you are. But the best version of it, the kind version that is wanting to be there for everybody and open to understand and listen. And as a woman, there is true power in being feminine. I worked for a CEO directly, and I really love that she would go into a very heavy board meeting, a very male dominant environment where she’s even in a country where women have very little to no rights in a gorgeous dress. There is power in being truly yourself and there is power in being truly kind. And these two can go together hand in hand.

Yeliz Castillo:
Totally agree. Absolutely agree. And in your opinion, from obviously you were sharing that in your current job that most support comes from male counterparts. What would you say have been like the challenges in terms of working through that stigma? You know?

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Yeliz Castillo:
Okay, so. Milena.

Milena Warner:
Hey.

Yeliz Castillo:
Hi. So today’s topic is obviously a very interesting one, and before we start, I would like to clarify and underline that this is not against any specific type of person or group of people, and we just want to give different perspectives. I think that’s very important for us to say. But obviously you will clarify this as well. But yeah, today’s topic is how to be successful in a male dominant industry. And what my first question about this would be, why is this important to you?

Milena Warner:
Hey, Yeliz, thank you so much for inviting me to be a part of this incredible podcast series. This is important because we live in a day and age where, let’s be real, for example, childcare is at crazy high costs. So you have to have both parents working very so often or all the time. And that’s not unique just to the uk. The US market is very similar. So for people that maybe want to not compromise on career and family, they have to consider that success is a part of that wholesome experience. It’s important. Even just for being satisfied within yourself, should you not want to have children, Whatever life journey you have chosen for yourself, you have to consider that at some point you may have to be the odd one out.

And for women that is often being a part of an industry that is with more male dominance. For example, the FinTech industry, financial services, the tech industry. However, I must say that as of late I’ve noticed such positive changes in the stats. For example, right now the company that I work for has very good balance, in fact in favor of women. 52% of the population working for the business is women. And we represent both technology represent fintech and financial services. So it’s incredible to see that there is a shift. But as we know, if you look at the stats going up the ladder, the more senior you get, the more narrow it becomes when it comes to the data being very positive.

You see a lot more white males leading the organization. So it is important that you know how to be successful in that, in that field and in your day to day job. And I definitely want to come with exactly what Yeliz says from the perspective that it isn’t either or we’re not for or against. We most definitely come as just professionals who want to empower you from the place of this is what works for us. And for me what has always worked is being true to, to, to the foundation of your end goal and motivation. So as a woman that comes from, from I would say a foreign background in the UK and Bulgarian, Jewish and I had to hustle a lot in my career very earlier on, completely on my own. I quickly realized that you want to make allies, anybody that is willing to help you, you want to make friends and that doesn’t exclude or include different groups of people. So in my experience, to put it short, you have to be very focused on where you want to be in your career.

Go for it, be transparent with yourself, be transparent with everybody around you and do not compromise on that. And in fact, I want to say that within male dominant industries that I’ve always been a part of to deliver for our clients or for the brands I’ve represented, men have been instrumental at just giving help. Even in my new job right now, most of the help I’ve got has been from my colleagues that are male. So it is amazing to see that this is very much embraced and reciprocated from everybody. And everyone wants to be pushing someone that will do the same for them. And last but not least, I must share that my success in my career is most definitely possible only because of the backing I have from my husband. So for me, success happens firstly at home. It happens with the people you surround yourself with, with your family and having that place of truth and alignment with your immediate circle of people, personally and professionally is, is a very good start.

Yeliz Castillo:
Yeah, I totally agree with you. I feel there is a stigma that we always want as women, you know, just like a female empowering house, you know, and, or like a female powerhouse, you know, when we’re in the workplace and we’re all against men and men should be out and whatever. But I totally agree. I feel it’s the combination of both. I think, like, I don’t want to make this about the gender, but I think, you know, obviously like also with, with given times and there’s obviously for a lot of people, not just two genders, but multiple. So I don’t want to go into this discussion, but generally like if we just talk about a traditional man and female kind of side, I, I think it’s the combination of both that actually creates the success, whether this is a home or this is, you know, in the workplace. Because both sides can bring so many valuable skills and perspectives. I think that’s what every company needs in a leadership position, IC level, junior level. You know, I think that’s really the goal.

Obviously there are always times where there might be more male or more, more female, but it’s more about, you know, finding a way, working through difficult challenges, you know, on a day to day basis with both. Right. Like it shouldn’t. I feel like this whole topic about male and female or you know, whatever other genders we’re talking about now really has taken out of perspective almost. Because it shouldn’t be about that. You know, I think there are real issues, of course, and there are real unfair situations happening. I’m not, you know, denying those.

And that is, I think a different topic. But I think the, the overall message here should be that we should work together and you know, there should be support on both sides. And just because we’re women, we should not, you know, make a hype about not wanting to work in a male dominant industry, but rather try to find a change and a solution to make it better. Do you know what I mean? I think this is the way forward.

Milena Warner:
It doesn’t have to mean to be against the current, it can literally just be about balance and everyone playing to the best of their abilities, their potential, their talent. Bring to the table who you are exactly as you are. But the best version of it, the kind version that is wanting to be there for everybody and open to understand and listen. And as a woman, there is true power in being feminine. I, I work for a CEO directly and I really Love that she would go into a very heavy board meeting, a very male dominant environment where she’s even in a country where women have very little to no rights in a gorgeous dress.

Yeliz Castillo:
Yeah.

Milena Warner:
There is power in being truly yourself and there is power in being truly kind. And these two can go together hand in hand.

Yeliz Castillo:
Totally agree. Absolutely agree. And in your opinion from obviously you were sharing that in your current job that most support comes from male counterparts. What would you say have been like the challenges in terms of working through that stigma? You know, that I think also like, you know, I want to take this from a different perspective. I feel, you know, once you join a group of feminists, let’s say, or people who are like, yeah, we, you know, more women and no man or almost kind of this, you know, headline. What do you think are the challenges to kind of showcase what you really think or like what your opinion is? Right. By saying no, we need to work together. There should be a balance. What do you think? Or have you had a challenge actually with this thought?

Milena Warner:
Amazing question. Let’s go back to the beginning where I mentioned that I, I come from a different background. For example, English is not my first language. At the beginning. When I was starting in the UK in the recruitment, very unique boutique, small agency again, a man gave me an opportunity, he hired me and I started from scratch being trained up on the job. And often I will have the right idea, I will have the right approach, but I will be self conscious about maybe my accent or the way I will be perceived because there is obviously there is a cultural procreation for every immigrant. We know that we want to be integrated and liked especially by the locals, especially by those that sound local and well established. Whether it’s going to be the area, the organization, we want to be accepted.

And it suddenly just dawned on me that I can’t be pregnant with my own thoughts and ideas and desires and ambitions forever. And I have to learn to express them. And it starts, and it starts by just doing it. And you’re going to make mistakes and that’s fine. That’s absolutely fantastic. Just be okay with making mistakes and just know this is priceless because you will never learn more than you will from your own mistakes. But you have to voice your opinions, ideas, spot a problem, go for it, converse with your colleagues about it, look for a solution. And the more actually you’re active in your career and your achievement, the lesser okay and approval you will receive from the general public.

You only get that from the most exceptional players in the team, the organization or whatever you’re part of. So, yeah, it’s about overcoming your own little voice in your head where we begin, I think. And then you keep on pushing forward. It doesn’t matter what personality type you are. And I spend a lot of time studying this topic because it fascinates me. I love people. This is why I do recruitment, because I just love the material, the matter of people. It doesn’t matter what personality you have, what circumstances you have, you will fight your own battle in your head and you just have to push forward and go, okay, this is it.

I’m going to do my absolute best. And then whatever, I don’t know, I will compensate with learning, with hard work and I’ll go to the right people or the wrong people and I will find the solution. But it’s about that relentless pursuit of we need to grow, we need to revolutionize things and adapt. As you can tell, you just adapt to what you need to do.

Yeliz Castillo:
And just while you were talking like, I, I actually have this kind of observation and maybe kind of linking it to recruitment and I think it would just like to take, to have your take on this. So obviously you know, everyone who doesn’t know recruitment, maybe just to explain when there is a final interview or a case study stage, there’s usually a debrief after with all the interviewers and you know, you would then go through talking about everyone’s view and get everyone’s feedback on the candidate and then there would be like a, like a decision made basically. And what we try to do in these debriefs are like trying to spot biases and making sure that everyone is aligned and you know, just making sure that the decision is basically a fair made one. And what I personally experience a lot is when the decision maker is a male person that if, let’s say the hiring manager or the interviewers generally are female mainly. But if the decision maker is a male, and let’s say I usually start off with everyone who has been interviewed. Sorry, who has interviewed.

And at the end I asked the decision maker for their opinion. What honestly 80, 90% happens is everyone gives their opinion and let’s say the decision or like the feedback is mainly positive. If the decision makers male and he says something rather negative about the candidate, the complete opinion and the decision about this candidate, 80, 90% changes. And I only, and I have pattern in my head. And I’ve watched this in different organizations that I worked in, different cultural backgrounds but there is a pattern, I feel, and I would like to know if you have spotted this as well, where you feel there is maybe a cultural, maybe a biological, I don’t know, or maybe even a society like, like a society based reason that we do get influenced by a male counterpart in one way or another. And I’m just spotting this not for a negative, not, not as a negative point, but I just want to spot this to kind of maybe bring out this bias that we might have subconsciously.

Milena Warner:
Okay, so there is a reason why I started by certainly suggesting mindset and confidence. You have to, you have to come from a place of truth because that’s unbeatable. You’re already working on a solid ground. Nothing can beat that. You know, you’ve put in the work, you’ve put in the research, you’ve got the data. So then when you have that situation, you can focus on what’s outside of you. And now you have this colleague, let’s say it’s a male, because it can be even the other way around because let’s be honest, it could be a positive bias if it was more dominant female room. It can be in any scenario.

But you have this person that is now hijacking the narrative from where it was meant to go in a ideal, fair scenario. Now what you need to do is you’re focusing on the room and who’s there. And it’s very helpful to be able to recognize what sort of character you’re dealing with. And there is a very good personal mentor of mine that I, I know I’m going to meet her one day. Her name is Evie Pompous. So she’s an ex CIA agent from the Special Services in America. So she talks about that a lot. You have different types of people in every conversation.

And I, ideally we want to adopt these four types in different settings in different conversations. But you have to be able to recognize it. So you have a lion, you have a mouse, you have a lion, mouse, dinosaur. And there was one more type, I’m sorry, I wasn’t prepared to give that example necessarily. But the idea is when you have a lion, the rest of the crowd, most likely in a group setting, will become a mouse. And you’re going to also have to adopt to be what works with this. And then if it’s a dinosaur type of approach, you have to be a dinosaur with a dinosaur. So there is a science to this and you’re just going to have to be very good at being confident and, and expressing your opinion, getting it out there in the best way that it’s easily understood, reciprocated, and ultimately leads to resolution that is fair for everybody.

So that involves, you’ve already done your data research, you are ready to present it and you’re ready to deliver it in a way that matches the profile, the meeting and the setting that you are a part of. I would say, and that that is not always going to deliver the outcome you’re aiming for. But I think having that preparation at any point given not because somebody is against us or something is going to go wrong, but having these stats, having this backhand confidence then will help you to quickly be on your toes, ready to give your peace. Especially if you feel a little bit more in the situation of this meeting is being hijacked or, oh, I’ve got a dinosaur in front of me now. I’m going to be a dinosaur. Be a bit more direct, but I’m the good dinosaur. I’m not going to eat you alive because I’m fighting the good fight. I would say that’s what I would do personally.

Yeliz Castillo:
Yeah, I think why you’re saying it’s, I’m literally looking back into my journey as a recruiter and I remember in the very beginning when I started this job, I was, I think, constantly the mouse, I guess, in terms of, you know, obviously, like, not just because I come from a, like, agency recruitment. So it’s like you kind of go after the client and you try to convince the client. So then you, you obviously try to please the client and then naturally there is like this power, you know, this, this, this power shift because you want something from them and you have to prove yourself. So naturally you kind of go into this, okay, I’m going. I had to really learn, obviously, over time, and. But then also with the confidence that grew within me of, you know, I know what I’m doing, I know how I have to do things. And now it’s like more on an eye level. So I guess now I’m a dinosaur.

I mean, I don’t know all the meaning behind these, but, like, it’s hard. And I’m just mentioning this because I feel this is maybe a common issue along, you know, like, throughout a lot of different type of groups or like people, you know, who maybe start in this job or are in sales generally. You know, it could, it doesn’t need to be recruitment by anything where you might feel a bit more intimidated by your male, you know, colleagues or stakeholders. But then I think it kind of has to come back to, as you said, like, you Know, growing the confidence, like believing in yourself and trying to, to look at, okay, what do I deliver? What, what do I know? And, and you know, like how I deal with that rather than actually making it a power game, I think. But yeah, very interesting. Like, I didn’t notice. Sorry.

Milena Warner:
Oh, sorry. It is, it is a power game and we’re not, we’re not even making it, it is a power dynamic, as you said, because at some point you just, you just have to deliver in the ranks.

Yeliz Castillo:
Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Well, I would have one more question, and that is what would be your top three tips for someone who might feel a bit more like a mouse using the terminology they used or I don’t want to even say that, but just someone who feels a bit more intimidated in an industry that is not in their comfort zone of, you know, people they feel like connected to emotionally or, or you know, career wise even generally. What would you say are your top three tips?

Milena Warner:
Well, I think it’s important just to kind of consider for being able to thrive in the male dominant industry. Number one thing is mindset and confidence. Talk about what you want to achieve and take yourself there with hard work, build credibility, share how you establish yourself with the results you bring to the table, which is going to be based on hard work and transparency. And you can’t do that without looking up to other people. I mean, I dropped in a name, but there are many people at work and in my previous jobs that I look up to and I have long lasting relationships. Some people have placed in their jobs, some people I, I met once in an event. They’re based in New York. I say hello to once or twice a year, but we check in on each other, we talk about employer branding topics, we talk about how you build a narrative for a brand.

Even though I’m a recruiter and that empowers me to think again, bigger picture, broader picture. And the person I’m thinking of, she’s a lady. So think about who you want to be in your career, visualize that person, find them in an organization, go after that conversation and if they’re willing to help, definitely, definitely take advantage of that relationship. And again, resilience and adaptability, a huge one. Why, why is that easier today than any other day? We’ve got AI. So let’s say I’m a little bit insecure about the way I come across, maybe the way I word things. And we know it. Candidates are using these tools for interviewing.

Candidates are using these tools even for test. That’s absolutely fine. We Use it in our day to day job. At the end of the day all that technology is created to enhance and bring the best out of us. So use it to your advantage. AI can be an incredible equalizer and kind of even out the play field a little bit for us all. Where male go to the pub and they chat to each other. You have it at your fingertips.

If you just pull out a few searches. People play with a few different platforms. I’m not going to endorse any particular brand. You know, within your organization. Maybe there are certain tools you can’t use, but in your personal time, try out, check. Is it going to be chat GPT, is it going to be deep seek? Is it going to be some note taking tool? Whatever works for you that helps you get to the next level of excellence, keep on chasing that and that’s going to empower you to make smart decision making. But don’t be, don’t be naive about it. I’ve seen AI make lots of mistakes.

So whenever you have that time to invest in learning or crafting a project, you’re going to have to read through it. You can’t just take it for, for the whole truth and put it out there because that could be reputation damaging. But ultimately it can be an amazing tool for culture enhancement and just giving you incredible data and empowerment to go after a question, go after a conversation. I hope that, I hope that kind of summarizes everything.

Yeliz Castillo:
Thanks so much. That was really insightful. I think it’s a great perspective and definitely a topic that needs to be looked at from different angles way more often. So yeah, thank you so much for sharing your time and your perspective on this.