Warum die Erfahrung von Bewerbern wichtig ist, mit Mert Amcaoglu

Mert Amcaoglu:
If your employing branding is not strong or it’s lacking in certain areas, you’re essentially missing out on a whole pool of candidates. So I think to give you the best ability to essentially hire what you’re looking for, it’s really important to have good candidate experience, which ultimately does lead to employer branding. And on the flip side, if you have bad employee branding, you really struggle to bring good candidates in, even if you’re an amazing recruiter.

Yeliz Castillo:
Hello, Mert. Nice to have you here.

Mert Amcaoglu:
Thanks for having me.

Yeliz Castillo:
You’re very welcome. Thank you for being here. So today’s episode is with Mert Amcaoglu, and we will be talking about the topic candidate experience and why it matters. And it’s a very interesting and important topic to my heart. But first, I would like to know why this topic is important to you.

Mert Amcaoglu:
Like I said, thank you. Thank you for the invite. It’s a pleasure to be here. Candid experience, definitely super important for anyone in recruitment, whether that’s external or internal. It’s all about the journey we take the candidate through. And more than anything, I think why it’s important to me is it’s quite rewarding to find people new roles again, whether it’s contractors, whether it’s permanent, and bringing people or employees into your company. I think it’s very rewarding getting someone all the way from advertisement all the way to making them your new hire. And I think it’s also a great tool if you can really ensure your candidate experience is great. It’s such a great tool and it makes, you know, a lot of difference with the recruitment process.

Yeliz Castillo:
For sure, I think also it touches various different topics, right. Like, it’s one thing to have a good candidate experience for the candidates, but then in reverse, it kind of touches back on to your employer branding. Right. How you look in the market and, and what the first touch point of the market is with your company. But then I think the other one is also the reputation that you kind of build. You know, it sometimes is just a first impression and it might not work out in that moment with that candidate, but you never know, it might open other doors later on, especially in a time where it’s so difficult to find, you know, candidates that are really suitable for your roles because there’s so much demand in so many different ways. So what would you say, like, from your perspective and your experiences, how does candid experience really impact employer branding.

Mert Amcaoglu:
An employee branding perspective? I mean, it has such a big impact. I mean, with candid experience, it’s really important to make sure you know it’s a positive experience. All the way from advertisement going out or whether you’re headhunting and reaching out to people. It’s all about that first communication and that hook almost to what’s going to make them want to work in your company. And I think it has such a big impact on, you know, firstly the quality of candidates that apply for the role. If, you know, if your employing branding is not strong or is lacking in certain areas, you’re essentially missing out on a whole pool of candidates. So I think to give you the best ability to essentially hire what you’re looking for, it’s really important to have, you know, good candidate experience, which ultimately does lead to employee branding. And on the flip side, if you have bad employee branding, you really struggle to bring good candidates in.

Even if you’re an amazing recruiter and you have all the tools available. It’s just so hard if your branding is not there, you know, you’ll be your. What’s the word I’m looking for? You’re just trying to climb a hill that keeps getting steeper.

Yeliz Castillo:
Yeah, that’s very true. Also because, like, I’m thinking of myself, I also know for myself, but then also from candidates that sometimes they apply for any kind of role within a certain company just because they want to work for that company, regardless of the role. Right. So I think that’s also another perspective that we could look at on. On why it’s really important. So what would you say are the biggest frustrations that candidate face when they go through an interview process?

Mert Amcaoglu:
Well, there’s. There’s a variety of stuff that could really be a bad experience. I think the most important one, especially right now, where it’s a market where there’s a lot of candidates available. I think just a lack of communications, like if, if. If you know, if someone has applied for a role and you don’t get back to him within a certain time frame, I think that’s quite poor. There’s so many ATS now or CRMs that you use that are fully automated. It doesn’t take much to set this up. Whether it’s, you know, a positive feedback to move them to a screening call, or whether it’s a negative impact, a negative feedback that, you know, you don’t want to move ahead with them because maybe there’s better candidates in the pool.

I think just even communicating that you will not be moving ahead with someone goes such a long way. And like you said, I think, again, that’s. That really starts to Build like your brand. Like, people will be aware. Oh, okay. This company cares about the people that apply for their roles. Even if they’re replying and saying, you know, we’re not moving ahead at this stage, it’s always a great idea to keep the door open because you never know, you might need this candidate six months down the line, 12 months down the line. I mean, I’m sure, you know, I know we’ve hired so many candidates that we’ve kept in touch with over the years and I think just.

Yeliz Castillo:
Yeah, yeah. And what do you do specifically to avoid that? Like you were talking about giving feedback, for example, to candidates on a timely manner. What would you say? Like, what are you, what are the things that you do to provide a good candidate experience?

Mert Amcaoglu:
Yeah, I mean, just, just for that first, first sort of point of contact when they’ve applied to a role or, you know, you reach out to them by a headhunting method and you wanted to speak to them. I think it’s very important to give them a reason of if you’re not moving ahead. Why? I think the why is very important. So we use, we use Team Taylor as an ats and we’ve got a variety of reasons of why we potentially are not going ahead with this candidate. Whether it’s, you know, if it’s a hybrid model and, you know, you need someone to be based in London, they’re up in Liverpool, that’s obviously not possible. So whether it’s a location, whether it’s salary, whether it’s, you know, a specific industry they worked in that is maybe not relevant. So we always try to give a reason. So I think that’s the first thing.

And this also helps us when we’re recruiting because, you know, all of this is data. So we can go back and look at this data three months down the line, six months down the line or whatever in a year. And we can see, you know, X number of percentage of the reasons why we didn’t go ahead with the candidate was maybe because our salaries were too low. And then that opens up another conversation of is our salary bandings in the correct place? Is it, is it to the expectations of the market? So you start to build, I guess, data from this communication. It works both ways because you’re, you’re also providing them with a good candidate experience, but on the back end you’re building a lot of data that, you know, the talent team can use. To make decisions crucial.

Yeliz Castillo:
Crucial! I mean, this data is everything, especially if you want to improve. 100% agree. Going back now to what you said with like the data and like giving the reason, funny enough, actually just today I was rejecting someone and I called them up because what I usually do, and this is like my way of doing it, I. When I’m in, when I’m in the first call with a candidate, I usually tell them that, you know, if it’s a positive next step, then they will receive an email or a call from me. And if it’s a no, then they will receive a very boring message that it’s not going ahead further and that we give detailed feedback after the second stage. So this is like kind of the way I kind of manage expectation already. And with certain roles, what I also do is I tell them straight away in the first call I have my weekly on Wednesday, you know, whenever the day is. And if I come, don’t come back to you by then, then it means it’s a no.

If it goes further, then I will call you. Like, you know, when I like to, for example, high volume and hiring. And so I have my different ways. And again today I was calling someone after the third round and rejected them and he was like, you could have just sent me an email. Why did you call me and tell me this? And wasting my time almost. So it’s funny, like, sometimes we also think that people want to know, but I think that’s also not the norm nowadays, honestly, like I. And then, and then you have other people that you do, you know, call and they’re really grateful that they actually do receive, you know.

Mert Amcaoglu:
Yeah, it’s very hard. Like everyone’s different. But I think just like you said, it’s all about just setting the expectations. I mean, I’m sure, and you’ll probably agree with me, we would all love to call candidates for every person who’s applied, call them, reject them. But unfortunately, you know, we won’t have the time. We’ll be on the phone all day. So there are certain times where at certain stages it does have to be just an email. But I agree anyone post screening call? And yeah, it would always be a phone call, whether it’s positive or negative.

Yeliz Castillo:
Yeah, yeah, I, I agree. And I think. And if you don’t have the capacity for that, then what you can also do is just send an email still, but then offer that the opportunity for the person who can call afterwards if they wanted to have more feedback. I think that’s also an option. But it’s funny, like how the candidate experience really does differ and you know, it’s not just like a one size fits all kind of approach actually. Yeah.

Mert Amcaoglu:
Yeah, even differs from like the different departments in your company to the different levels. Yeah. It really does depend on the role. Yeah.

Yeliz Castillo:
Yeah. And would you say that like you also had some moments where you thought you were, know, doing something, you know, for a candidate in, in your, in, in your way, that it was like a positive thing, but it went completely south? Like, do you have any kind of example of that that you could share, maybe?

Mert Amcaoglu:
When I first started my recruitment career in an agency, staff group, shout out staff group, I think I gave, I got feedback from a client which, and I passed on to the, to the, to the candidate and it was a pretty harsh feedback.

Yeliz Castillo:
Okay.

Mert Amcaoglu:
I didn’t filter it. I just almost forwarded it on. And I think there is a degree of, you know, of course constructive, constructive criticism is, is good to a certain extent, but there, I do find there’s probably a very fine line of what’s harsh and what’s not. And I’m not saying like you should, you know, edit the feedback. I’m just saying you almost, I think this comes with experience. You almost filter through what’s relevant, what’s going to help them improve and then what’s, what’s almost like not, not necessary in a sense.

Yeliz Castillo:
Oh my God. 100 million agree. I think I had to learn this also the hard way. Very similar. And I think you just get used to, and I think as you said, it comes with experience and time that you know exactly. Okay. What is right to share and what isn’t. Because certain things are also, you know, between the lines and I think also specifically maybe between the hiring manager and you where they open up and tell you maybe certain things.

But I think since we’re in a professional environment, it’s really about giving constructive feedback and things that are really helpful also because there is also this big topic involved always and that’s bias. Right. So I think you can really not tell everything that you want to or that you’ve been told when it comes to feedback. So tip top tip to everyone who is listening and who is starting off as a recruiter, please don’t share all the feedback. It can backfire for sure. Yeah, I agree. Great. And what would you say is like the future of candidate experience? How should be the ideal candidate experience look like?

Mert Amcaoglu:
I mean it’s, it’s so hard to say what it would look like, but obviously with, with sort of the, the whole AI stuff everyone’s talking about now. I think there’ll be certain elements of, you know, applying for roles or the screening part where you can definitely utilize AI tools and make, make your process a lot more streamlined. I think one of the, one of the things candidates hate the most is a long, lengthy process that’s not streamlined. So how, almost, how can you use this tech, this automation, this whatever it may be, AI that can help you to improve efficiency, improve quality of candidates, improve the process? It might even be not related to the actual hiring side. It might be, how can you use AI to dive into your data, your recruiting data and how can you, you know, make the recruitment needle, as they say, you know, thicker and have more, more candidates? So, yeah, I mean, I don’t know what, what it would look like, but I can see a lot of processes being a lot more streamlined, automated and yeah, I think it will always have the human touch. I think we both know recruitment, you know, won’t exist without the human touch. I think will never be replaced by, by robots. But yeah, I think it will be a combination of both.

Yeliz Castillo:
Yeah. And big shout out to all the companies out there. I think for me, the most frustrating bit in, in a candidate as a candidate was always these huge application forms that you had to fill in. You know, where you have to upload your CV and then you have to fill in the exact same information on their website. I mean, like, honestly, I, I remember I used to, like in the very beginning when, when I started applying, like, there was one point where as soon as it wasn’t an easy apply and I saw that there was like a long form, I would just stop applying. Like, I just wouldn’t anymore because, you know, if you do that once or twice, it’s okay. But if you’re actively looking and you, you know, have to do that with all. Almost every application is so frustrating and it’s so time consuming.

Mert Amcaoglu:
Yeah.

Yeliz Castillo:
And then sometimes you don’t even get an answer from, you know, from certain places. So honestly, like, if I could ditch anything, that, that would be the first thing I would if I could.

Mert Amcaoglu:
Absolutely. Likewise, when I, when I was looking for a new role and I came across a website like that where you have to upload your CD and then fill in all the all details after. Yeah, I simply close the tab. Like, literally, I do not work for a company that still thinks that’s okay.

Yeliz Castillo:
Right. It’s usually not in an era of easy apply, like, no, the cv and then also now like being on the other side, you know, where you look at the CV, what, maybe 5 seconds, 10 seconds maximum? You know, honestly, really don’t need to have all that information double and triple for no reason. So I think that is my biggest pet peeve when it comes to…

Mert Amcaoglu:
I prefer, I prefer candidates who write a cover letter, whether, even if it’s a paragraph or two, I think that goes a really long way. That like, helps their CV as well. I think having that personal touch, whether it might not even be cover letter, it might be just a paragraph on the top of their CV just explaining why they want to work for your company and why they feel they’re the best match for it or the good match for it. I think that goes a long way.

Yeliz Castillo:
Yeah. And what’s the take on cover letters generally, like, from a candidate experience? Do you think that’s outdated? A cover letter? And I’m not talking about the paragraph. Right. But as a company, you expect your candidates or, you know.

Mert Amcaoglu:
No, I mean, I think it’s always, in my view, it always has to be optional. I wouldn’t make it mandatory because again, you’re probably losing out on a lot of candidates who will, you know, be like, okay, well, that’s almost a blocker for me. I’ll go apply to another role. That’s easy. Apply. Right. So I think having this optional is always the best approach, especially today where it’s so easy to apply for roles. But then I do feel like if someone is super interested in the role, why wouldn’t they do it? Because I think it does potentially make them stand out, you know, every roles now we’re getting so many candidates applying and I think it can make a difference if you go that one step further. But again, it really varies on the role in the sector, in the industry and even in your department. It’s a case by case. You can’t say it’s not. One size fits all right.

Yeliz Castillo:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think like, like, rather than a, like a cover letter, I think if they would just give like an option to write like a couple of sentences, you know, which is way more authentic and personal, I think, than a cover letter that is kind of, let’s be honest, probably done for, you know, like a, like a template and then be just adjusted to each company, which is obviously something that we all have done. And in an era of ChatGPT, you know, I think it’s way better to just do that. But as you said, like, as an option, I think there are certain sectors and maybe even some roles where this is, would make a difference to read that. But generally I don’t think it should be mandatory.

Mert Amcaoglu:
to what, what we’ve doneWhat we do here at Bark is we, we try to at least add like two or three questions per row of like real key skills you need to be able to do this role. So for example, if I’m looking for a backend Python engineer.

Yeliz Castillo:
Yeah.

Mert Amcaoglu:
One of the questions would be is, do you have experience with Python? Or how many years of experience with Python do you have? Or not even necessarily years of experience, you know, more like which projects have you worked on with Python? And if the answer is like, no, I haven’t or whatever it may be, then you already know that candidate is going to be no good. So again, it’s almost like a, it’s a way of filtering on our side and then it really does help like make the, the vast number of candidates applying at least, you know, some of them who you know are not relevant. Again, because it’s so easy to apply, you do get some candidates who apply who are not relevant. It’s just easy to filter through to get to the candidates who can really do the job and you can really. Yeah. Join and drive impact.

Yeliz Castillo:
Yeah, totally agree. Yeah, I think that’s way, way more efficient and helpful from both sides. Right. Because also if as a candidate you get asked certain questions and you know that you don’t have that skill or the experience, then you kind of know for yourself as well whether this is probably going forward or not. You know, I think it helps both sides. So yeah, I think from an candidate experience perspective, you know, relevant questions to like to ask relevant questions to the role rather than asking to fill out the CV details.

Mert Amcaoglu:
Yeah, exactly. And even if those candidates who are not relevant and they somehow get through and you screen them and then they have an interview they’re going to be pushing the whole time because they obviously are not suitable for the job. So then why would you make them stressed almost to go through that process which again leads back to the candidate experience, like that’s not a good candidate experience. You want to have relevant candidates for the role. So yeah, it works both ways for sure.

Yeliz Castillo:
Yeah. And what do you think about again candidate, from a candidate experience perspective, about having on site interviews or online interviews?

Mert Amcaoglu:
So we operate a, a mixture of hybrid model and remote working. So I have the view of both sides. I think for certain roles having that on site interview really makes a big difference. I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t, I, I mean, I really feel that’s relevant for candidates who are at final stage, maybe. So someone who’s obviously invested a lot of time, they know you, they know your product, they’ve obviously been through a couple of interviews and they’re at the final stage. I think at that point, that’s the best time to offer someone. And when I say offer, like, it’s not mandatory. It’s just a suggestion.

You know, people have lives, they have kids, whatever it may be, it might not be possible, that’s also absolutely fine. But we always offer, if you would prefer the final stage, you know, we can do it in person. You can meet your potential new colleagues, you can see the environment, the office, you can see what the commute is like. So I think it almost helps. Helps them make a decision as well. And I think it’s, you know, if someone is joining a company and they’re making that decision, I think it’s, it’s obviously an important decision. Right. So I think it’s almost like they.

We want them to be comfortable with the decision they’re making. But again, it’s not optional, it’s not mandatory, it’s optional. So, you know, it’s whether they want to. And I would say 95% of the time they love to come in and meet people.

Yeliz Castillo:
Yeah, yeah, I agree. Yeah. I think it, it again, also depends, I guess also on the location where the role is based. Obviously, if you’re in a different country, whatever, then this might be a bit more difficult. But I think as well, it’s, it’s important to have that, like, personal touch almost.

Mert Amcaoglu:
Yeah.

Yeliz Castillo:
And kind of know where your future, you know, your new chapter is going to be, you know, when, especially if you work in a hybrid model. So I do agree. I think it’s, it’s, it’s. I think the initial two or three calls, depending on how many stages there are, could be done online because I think you get also good understanding of everything, you know, having just like a very focused conversation. And it’s also more efficient and more doable because you don’t have to take time off from your current role, for example, if you have to travel there or, you know, it’s just more efficient that you can squeeze in like a half an hour, an hour call.

Mert Amcaoglu:
Exactly, it really depends on your circumstances.

Yeliz Castillo:
Yeah, yeah. But then at the same time, I think it’s really, really important before you actually hire someone that that person comes in, still gets, you know, to take in where their office is, who the colleagues are, what’s the environment like, and also for the company. Right. I think you Also kind of get a better vibe of someone when you meet them in person. So I think it should definitely be a thing. It’s just crazy to me. You know, when I first, like when I started my career, I used to go for every initial conversation on be on site. You know, like back then there was no, no hybrid model. Everyone was like in the office five days a week and you would come.

Yeliz Castillo:
Literally. And it’s so funny, like now I can’t even imagine, you know, going for every interview. Imagine like all the interviews I do. Like imagine being on site and people coming in and out. Like you wouldn’t be able to have this many interviews.

Mert Amcaoglu:
You need a lot of energy.

Yeliz Castillo:
Yeah, energy and time. Because like I literally 90 of my time I sit in interviews. So I wonder like if this would be actually on site. I would basically not be able to do anything but sit in this meeting room and have interviews all day long, you know. So I wonder if sometimes like back in the day that the times like the time to hire was way longer than it is now.

Mert Amcaoglu:
I remember, I remember this was ages ago now, eight, nine years ago, I had to take off half a day to spend, spend time on site for like free interviews.

Yeliz Castillo:
Yeah.

Mert Amcaoglu:
And actually had to use annual holiday for interviews. You think about it now, you’re like crazy.

Yeliz Castillo:
Literally. Literally. But yeah, that’s what I’m saying. So it has really changed a lot. So yeah, I guess we are already in the future of candidate experience in that sense and yeah, let’s see what’s going to be changing even more within this. But yeah, what would you say, and this is my last question, what would be your top tip for companies to enhance the candidate experience, in summary?

Mert Amcaoglu:
I think going back to what I said earlier, just around like transparency, you know, just be transparent with people, set expectations. What we’ve done recently is we’ve added the interview process to the job description and even just adding that description there goes such a long way. Candidates already know what the process is going to be before they even apply for the role. So it makes such a big difference of like setting expectations. I think you can streamline hiring processes, especially if you’re internal. You know, your stakeholders are your hiring managers. These are people and colleagues you work with.

Yeliz Castillo:
Yeah.

Mert Amcaoglu:
After every successful recruitment, if possible, depending on workload, of course, it’s always good to just, just realign with your stakeholder, understand what worked, what didn’t work. Do you need to build a list of interviewers? Like an interviewer pool of people available? You need to think about holidays. Like, is the summer period coming up or is Christmas coming up? So, just trying to work out the best time to launch roles and how to streamline them and then I think just provide the feedback. Right. Again we mentioned. It was the first thing we mentioned, just providing feedback with candidates, whether that’s them going ahead to the next steps or even if it’s just a rejection, just even a one liner of this, you know, we didn’t decide to go ahead because of X. Reason goes such a long way.

Yeliz Castillo:
Yeah, great. Thank you so much, Mert. Lovely talking to you. And yeah, all the best to you.

Mert Amcaoglu:
See you soon.

Yeliz Castillo:
Bye. Thank you.