Das menschliche Element in der Personalbeschaffung und warum es wichtig ist mit Milena Warner

Yeliz Castillo:
Hello again.

Milena Warner:
Hey.

Yeliz Castillo:
Hi. So last time, after we finished the episode, we had an amazing conversation about recruitment and all the challenges and the things that we go through. So this is what we’re talking again today and I’m really excited about it because I feel like we’re going to talk about the real deal today. And yeah, I think maybe you can start off by giving your view on what recruitment is today and how you view it compared to the past.

Milena Warner:
Well, I think recruitment today is all about empathy. When I initially started in recruitment, I was baptized into the function of a small agency recruitment source within a boutique agency recruitment space, which is pretty cool. But I was very much taught the formula of how you source, how you build relationships, how you negotiate. And I’m still grateful to this day for this team and the people that taught me so much because it’s been my foundation and my DNA as a recruiter. And I think this is what makes me successful today. Because they were so good, I’m going to give them a shout out. Moriarty Media they were so good at relationship building, they were so good at not spending money, but actually spending their time effectively with what’s important.

Number one, relationship building and number two, truly understanding what the candidates want, need and how you can connect that with your clients or click, clients you don’t have. So that kind of stayed in my DNA as a recruiter, but in our day and age, things have shifted dramatically. I’ve got over 10 years of experience now and I’m a mixed bag between agency recruitment and in house. And I genuinely see such a shift since COVID and since AI stepped into the scene. And that’s been fun. I think there’s been empowering on so many fronts, but at the same time that just meant a lot more work for us as recruiters. I don’t know, how do you feel about it?

Yeliz Castillo:
Yeah, I think you touched on really good points. I also see a complete shift, actually. I feel it’s way more focused on empathy, way more focused on the human side because this is now how you grab people’s attention, how you really win candidates over. So I think before it was way more. Not everywhere or like not in every market, but in. It was way more an employer driven market. So I felt like it was more procedural, more like, yeah, okay, we need, we need someone, let’s interview, you know, and then it’s like different numbers and then whoever performed the best was the one who got hired. Whereas now it’s like shifted completely to hiring for potential and hiring for a cultural Fit and also being okay with, you know, hiring someone who’s maybe not as experienced but brings in the motivation and the right attributes to be great down the line, you know, two years later or something.

So I think that has changed a lot. And then also the process itself, and I’m just taking this from my own way of working or like being on the side or like on the, on the talent or recruiter side is that I’m now back to, back to back in interviews. And that is because everything is digitally now. You know, you don’t have people coming into the office, picking them up from reception and then having like two hours spent with them and yeah, just bringing in different people coffee or whatever, you know, like those things are not happening as much anymore. And before I remember when I was interviewing like for my first jobs, I had to go in for every step into the office and meet everyone face to face. And it was hours and hours of interviewing compared with, you know, going there, being there, the aftermath. And now everything is so quick and it’s like it feels long, right when you say you have five steps, six steps, seven steps, but actually it’s way shorter because it’s all online. So you don’t have the, the commute anymore or you know, the, the overtime when you talk too much, you know, after an hour, latest you have to go to the next meeting.

So there’s not much time to do all those things which I think have really shifted it. And then as you mentioned as well, I think the third biggest point for me is also AI, as you said, you sometimes don’t know anymore who really selects your profile or your cv. And then it goes through different systems and softwares and then you have now AI that really chooses the most relevant profile and then from which point onwards is then really the human there? You know, so. And before it was way more manual. I mean we still go through 500 inter cvs every day, you know, every day. Maybe not anymore, but you do do that on a weekly basis. But I think it has become way more automatic. A lot of technology and yeah, very digital.

Milena Warner:
I agree with that. I do also second what you say, that it’s really back to back. It is very energy consuming. I personally don’t know how to do an interview without investing myself into it fully. I want to understand what is happening with this person’s life, dreams, professional inspirations, how otherwise I could truly understand their motivation. So it’s a mix of satisfying the stakeholders, the hiring teams and understanding the why on technical side and you know, skill Set abilities, but also understanding, you know, the human element of it. And I think this is why I think that’s never going to change for a recruiter. Hiring is still deeply human.

Building trust, managing expectations and finding alignment between candidate and company team is still at the heart of the recruiter’s role. Now it really depends what the scope of the brand is. Is it with an amazing brand presence and employer branding or is it the opposite? Because this equally is going to be a great challenge for the recruiter. It’s not easy. If you have to go through 600 CVs that just arrived on a Monday since your post is over on Friday, then it’s not easy to go through thousands and thousands of LinkedIn profiles and sometimes you don’t even have that resource. Some I know even from personal experience you can’t actually use LinkedIn Recruiter. What do you do then? What if you don’t have the budget? So it’s a role where it requires so many different skills, where you need to be creative, you need to be in good communication with the internal and external teams with candidates and that could make or break the whole process. But yeah, I think time and energy consuming for sure.

Long Behold. I’ve forgotten the days where we would go for lunch with a candidate. I think even now you can play someone, change continents with them, relocate their whole family and they still don’t even know you exist. If you get an invitation for a coffee or lunch, you kind of go oh wow, wow, okay, that’s cool. I don’t know what’s that, what’s that to do with people? Do you think it’s my unique experience or do you think candidates very much show their appreciation?

Yeliz Castillo:
No, I think, you know what, I think it’s mixed. It really depends I think on the role and also maybe even the different departments. You know, I think engineering is very different to sales and then marketing is very different. So I feel like there’s different appreciations for different steps. I feel like, and I don’t want to generalize here, but I feel engineers appreciate way more a remote setting and a remote process. Whereas maybe someone in HR or someone in sales would appreciate more like the face to face, you know, so I think it, and again not generalizing, But I guess 90% it’s like that. So I think it, it, it differs. But I do think, you know, when you were just saying, you know, all those different challenges, I think what happens a lot is the, like what people don’t realize is that we juggle so many different people and so many different stakeholders at one given time, you know, that this invitation to a lunch where, you know, like you’re trying to show the empathy or communicate everything sometimes can really go under.

And obviously our goal is to give 100% right with each candidate, whether you continue with them throughout the process and you hire them or, you know, it’s just the first conversation and it might not happen now, but it might happen later. You never know. But I think it’s really underrated, the amount of different stakeholder points we have on a daily basis. And I think if you openly, you know, explain that or communicate that to candidates, they really do appreciate it way more whether you do have those, you know, face to face gatherings or not. So I think it’s all about communication and really. Yeah, just being open and transparent and, and just, you know, if you don’t have a budget for something to just really say it, if you do offer it, then you know, to go for it, but then also not apply or like not kind of force people to do things that they don’t want to do or they don’t feel comfortable with. Because I think now with the option to be remote and do things maybe, you know, in a, in a more comfortable setting, I think you have to give people, you know, the, the option to choose and to bring out the best in their comfort zone. Bring out them in the best way in their comfort zone.

Milena Warner:
I think it’s about your non negotiables, especially when you said remote, not remote. This is a shift we noticed since COVID especially we as recruiters from that time before and after, I would say experienced a massive shift and I would say the roller coaster of it, because it was no hiring, then it was mass layoffs, especially in the tech industry, and you went from fighting over the same talent pool, then all of a sudden things really shifted. Candidates had a lot more ownership over the process. They got a lot better in my experience, at interviewing and getting prepared at knowing what their non negotiables are once you have kids. I mean, even the baby boom after Covid, that somewhat affected me personally, but at the same time, it’s kind of like you need to know your non negotiables as a recruiter boss, as a candidate, because as much as you may want to work remotely as an employee, the company may not be offering that, but it is something that now is widely available. So I quite like that you gave this example. And often we reach out to candidates to openly communicate these things. From the get go, you know what you can’t change with the stakeholder and what is moldable.

So we’re very, especially when we’re more experienced, we’re very quick at suggesting ideas and seeing how we can influence the process so we can preempt the offer stages in the best favor of the business and the candidate. But ultimately there are non negotiables and I think it’s about aligning that very earlier on. And I, I want to touch base with you on the feedback piece because I’ve had, I’ve had very different experiences here. So at once I called the candidate who I knew was going to be a no, the hiring manager. Just let me know straight away after the interview. But I did consider that he had a big gap on his CV and from the way he was coming across in a screening call, I, I just felt that he would appreciate the personal touch rather than a cold email. So I gave him a call and he nearly teared up and said, nobody does that now openly speaking, I cannot do that for 600 candidates per headcount over the span of three days. So I don’t do that for everyone.

But again, I just listened to my recruitment hunch there and even just my, my, my person, you know, intuition there and I just went, okay, I need to do this for him, but I can’t do that for everybody. And then I had another case where I did everything in my power to contact this candidate. It was almost like a two hours chase on multiple platforms because there were all sorts of technical errors to give him some feedback from his technical assessment and he knew that this was happening because they were all on his side. The, the challenge is to connect with him and I’m giving him this 20 minutes feedback, looking forward to empowering his career and you know, making his next interview a lot better. And then he sends me an email. Do you mind sending that in writing?

Yeliz Castillo:
Oh yeah, I had one of those.

Milena Warner:
I spent so much time trying to give you that, you know, and then, and then there are other candidates where you really, really do your best to be on top of your admin. And then I yesterday see some sort of frustration vibe in one of my emails and I go, but who is this person? Don’t remember that name at all. And I’m not saying that I have this phenomenal elephant memory. But yeah, I couldn’t find his name even on the system. And then I realized, oh wow, this email matches so and so’s email. He has first and second name completely different on his email than on his cv. So I just wonder, do you think candidates understand what it means for us to deliver feedback, communicate with them effectively?

Yeliz Castillo:
Yeah, so I did, I don’t think. And actually when I got into this role, I thought, you know, this is what you learn, right? Everyone needs feedback and everyone wants it. So it is a one size fits all approach. But it’s not. This is what I learned, you know, in, in my. Yeah, almost nine years now. I definitely don’t think it is a generalized, wanted way of working with someone, you know, in a process. I don’t think everyone is open for it.

I think it feeds also into the fact that, you know, people do get frustrated if they have been looking for a while for jobs and, you know, they just don’t want to know anymore. They just want to yes or no and that’s it. And then you have other people who really chase you for feedback. Right. So what I have now implemented for myself, and I think it works quite well, is I communicate everything very clearly from the, from the first conversation I have when I get to speak to someone is I tell them straight away if I, you know, know that they will continue or like, obviously I usually not always know if they’re going to continue straight away after my conversation, but I always say to them, if it’s going to go further, you will, you know, be invited. And if it’s not going further, then you will receive a very boring email or like a generalized email that it is a no. Because we only give feedback after the second, usually the second, second stage. Because I think after, you know, minimum, when someone has spoken to a department interviewer, then they should receive some sort of feedback and I think that’s fair.

But not when they come to me because it’s so like, I literally, you know, out of so many candidates you pick, I don’t know, let’s say out of 100 candidates, I pick 20. I cannot possibly call every person, you know, for this one role and give them detailed feedback after the first conversation. But after the second, because we receive feedback, I think that’s doable. So then I do take the time. I try to call them once, two, three times. If I don’t reach them, I send an email and then I say, you know, that this has been an unfortunate no and if they want to have feedback, they can book themselves in and then I give them my link, you know, in the email. And some people do, but I’m telling you, 95% don’t. They do not want to have feedback.

And then there are other people where, you know, they come. And I had this as well a couple of months ago actually, where someone was like, in the final and then I called them when it was a no, and then they were like, yeah, yeah. Well, you could have just sent me an email to tell me it’s a no, you know, and I was like, okay. You know, for finalists, we usually do put more effort in because you invested time. So I kind of explained to him, but I think he was so frustrated that he just didn’t care. You know, he just wanted to know the answer. And that’s also fine. I think not everyone can deal with negative feedback, so it’s down to them.

Yeliz Castillo:
But obviously we try our best to give the best candidate experience as recruiters, so I think us trying is already enough. But, yeah, you can’t please everyone in this job. I think this is something you learn the hard way, you know, with different. Yeah. Examples. And do you ever feel that you also have people who really want the feedback and then you give it to them and then all they do is just argue with you? Did that ever happen to you?

Milena Warner:
Ask me that question?

Yeliz Castillo:
Yes, yeah.

Milena Warner:
I think this is such a great question because at some point, because you speak to so many people without realizing, you almost profile the type of personality you’re dealing with from the first five, ten minutes of the interview. And this is where you have to be super switched on with evaluating your own biases. Because at the end of the day, we need to deliver great quality and focus on that over anything. We’ve got to be data driven. So this is where you can be very pragmatic and switch off from that mindset, but you still pick up on what type of personality you’re dealing with and that should not affect our DEI highest. Right. So it’s so difficult to switch job because it’s almost like you have this refined frequency now in yourself. You can work this muscle and you know how to flex it.

I can tell which are going to be the troublemakers. I’m going to call them like that from the very beginning. And I almost and almost anticipate what’s going to happen next. And it’s always 99.9% accurately assessed from myself in the interview process. These are the people that keep on asking for more and more and more and more and more, and they naturally don’t progress much in the interview process because I think their focus is just not in the right place. Yeah, I think if candidates a bit more fixated on their end goal to secure the role that they really want, then they see the recruiter as a partner rather than a gatekeeper. And once you get that energy from someone in a conversation where they speak to you a bit more like you are the gatekeeper, then it’s, it’s quite clear that they’re not, you know, with their eye on the ball. That makes sense, at least to me. But yeah, I don’t think they’re that many.

Yeliz Castillo:
I agree. I think like, honestly, 90, 95 people really happy that they have received feedback and, you know, they appreciate it, especially if it’s over the phone. And I had even like this, no, sorry. Last week I had two people who actually booked in a video call with me, you know, because they really wanted to get further feedback. And I really appreciate that as well. I think it’s a great trait to have to like wanting to improve yourself. And you know, I think there no better people than us to, to be able to help them to do so. Right.

But I think it’s also difficult. And again, this is something that people don’t see. You know, you see yourself as that one person who has applied for this role and you know, and, and, and it’s almost like you think you’re the only one or obviously everyone goes in with some sort of an intention, right. Into a process. But we on the other side deal with 10 other people like you, you know, and, and everyone is different and everyone has different skills and everyone has a different process. And, and so you kind of have to constantly, as a recruiter, really adjust to the person and really get down again into their world or get into their world. Yeah. And so I think it is way more, how can I say, tailored work if you want to do the job well.

Right. Than you actually think. Especially if you really want to treat people like a human rather than a number. And it’s actually funny because I, you know, I did a post once, and I really want to mention this and I would love to have your take on this. I did a post once and I said I do not reply to every message I receive or every email because it’s impossible for me to do that. And I was just very honest, right. And I, I posted this on LinkedIn and said like, I, I just don’t, like I can’t do it. And it’s a numbers game, right? Like if you message me and I don’t Reply, you message 10 other people and one of them will reply.

This is how it goes. This also goes for me. This goes for you. When you reach out to candidates, you know, right. It’s for everyone. And I was just honest and said it. And the backlash I got on the comment section for this was like, oh my God, you know, what kind of a recruiter are you? You shouldn’t have, you know, this is not the goal of our job and whatever, whatever. Which was, you know, fair.

But I was just honest. But then the amount of messages I got privately where people were messaging me from talent or recruitment and were like, oh my God, I’m literally the same. Thank you for saying this, that makes me feel better. Or like, you know, saying even, hey, thank you for just being honest. You know, I would not be able to say this out loud, but it’s so true. Haha. Like, you know, like it was, it was even like a joke in a way, but it’s the truth, right? Like you cannot ever finish all your to do’s on a list on a daily basis with this job. Because there’s, you know, especially when you, when you constant tailor the feedbacks and the conversations with stakeholders like hiring managers, founders and then HR and the candidate, then, you know, you just never get to it.

So how do you feel about this? Like, is it true? Do you, do you think I’m exaggerating? Or do you feel like you can reply to everyone on LinkedIn, on email, on Slack, on, on everything?

Milena Warner:
To be honest, I’ve been trying multiple things in my day to day to be able to address this because I do really believe in honing that human element and I genuinely feel for these people. And you don’t want to lose that. And there’s only one way to be okay with not responding to them, which is to shut that off. Right? But I don’t want to lose that because it helps me to do my job well and it helps me to be like the person that I want to be and the mom that I want to be. So I’ve tried various things. Now it’s impossible to get back to everybody exactly when they’re messaging you. Especially if it’s that one person that you send them an email, you send them one message and they keep on sending you multiple. And it almost zaps your energy that it’s already on a low because we’re in back to back interviews, as you said, with the shift from COVID and I and remote hybrid global international hiring, we’re in back to back interviews.

Guys, gals, everybody. This means we’re talking to you on one to one basis. And we have our day to day job, we have our Internal, external meetings, we have events. We then need to have a coffee break or God knows, maybe eat food, go to the toilet. Like we’re still people. Right. So then we want to compile all the data we have, go through it, make sure we make a good decision so we don’t disqualify somebody when we shouldn’t. It takes a lot of switching between different skills and I would say preserving your energy.

What I do now is I try to switch channels, for example, to help myself. I pick the candidates. I want to give them a personal call for professional, personal reasons. So when I interview them, I, let’s say, find out a detail about them which makes me more motivated and that’s not fair, but it’s because I am considering something. Maybe they had a CV gap, maybe, maybe I invested myself into the process and I gave them some interview coaching advice. Whether they progressed or not. I invested myself a little bit further than maybe what the average recruiter would. But it doesn’t mean I don’t want to get back to the rest of my candidates.

Milena Warner:
I would. It might be a bit more generic. So for example, I did a head hunting project. I messaged 208 people. I can’t possibly send them exactly the same message obviously was a template and then they get back to me. Well, I would love to have a very customized approach, but it’s not possible. So again, I had a template and I just took a word here and there and I love someone in our leadership from, from the company I work for. Why she said an update is an update is better than no update.

Well, something’s got to give. I’m not going to be able to give them the email that I’m completely happy with or you know, the personal touch I’m completely okay with, but at least I can give them an update. And I’m. I’m not always going to succeed, but I can try and I can keep on trying.

Yeliz Castillo:
Exactly.

Milena Warner:
And what I’ve noticed for myself is that when I do it right away, all the way with my best attitude, then it’s better executed rather than having to come back to a pile of procrastination. Because then you have to fight with the. You still made the decision to not get back to them. Right. So it’s not, it’s not that the, that you’re dealing with decision fatigue or you’re not knowing what to say. We still, we still decide not to get back to them, but then it’s a choice. Why did you decide to do that? So, yeah, I suppose it’s about managing your own energy and qualifying for yourself what’s more important. But I really find it difficult to have to come back to hundreds of emails or messages on LinkedIn.

So I have my moments where I just go through a bulk and then I know my personal communication is suffering. So I didn’t get back to all my whatsapps and all my girlfriends, but that’s. My social battery is gone. And they, you know, they know that. They know that I will get back to them eventually. But yeah, like I said, something’s got to give. It’s got to be a compromise.

Yeliz Castillo:
I think I love my job. I really love doing what I do, but this job has really made me antisocial because by the end of the day, I do not want to talk to anybody anymore. I hate being on my phone. I always hated it, to be fair, but now I dislike it even more. I don’t want to see any messages, any, like, no calls. Just, you know, want to do things where I don’t have to use my mouth and talk to anyone or, you know, my brain to, to think and, you know, what to say, what to do. Nothing. I just want to chill and do something in the house or whatever that just relaxes me. Like, this is literally how it is for me.

So, yeah, I do think that, you know, that, as you said, something has to give. And yeah, you can never please everybody. And this is something that. It took me really long to. To get to that because in the beginning I really wanted to do everything 100 right and, you know, just. And I have always this approach. I really want to treat everybody the way I want to be treated if I’m in the process.

Because I have also had times where I was, you know, struggling to find a job during COVID for example. So it, it was difficult. And I can really relate to, you know, people who are actively looking and they really need to find something to, to provide for their families and all of those. Of course, I do understand. But the thing is, from our perspective, again, you know, we are not just dealing with one person with so many. And everyone has their own situation going on. And the fact that we are dealing with humans, there’s constantly something changing, right? People have emotions, they have situations, they have their own mind and decisions to make. And then it doesn’t just affect them, but then they have to also talk to their wives or husbands if they want to relocate or, you know, their kids or, you know, childcare and all these things that we also deal with, right? Like, and just shouldn’t sound like we’re complaining or anything but when I do put someone in a process and I bring them through it, I have to also deal with all of those things that they are dealing with.

You know, like you have to dig into their world and understand what they need, what they want and then translate all of that to the hiring team and make it happen. And you know, so it is a lot right going on at, at once and I think it’s just a simple rule and I have literally a, a little note next to my screen and I and it just says your hundred percent doesn’t have to be everyone’s 100%, you know, and this is literally what I tell myself like I try my best but it might not be enough for everybody. And yeah, that’s really my take. So my last question would be what your way of, you know, bringing yourself through those challenges or difficulties to manage it all.

Milena Warner:
Hardly know what’s important in the job I would say most importantly is that relationship built peace and the human element. And this is what’s going to keep us working before robots and AI take control world. Yeah, definitely not. I don’t think we actually going to be endangered from that perspective. Just joking, but this is where I kind of have grace for myself and I have grace for my team that I work with and the candidates. So if the candidate didn’t perform very well, I tried to find out in that interview why and then it turned out he had a two months old baby and I could see it on his face and he’s just an invested father and I very well know what this means. So then I gave him immediate feedback and I said to him, can you try and implement it? He actually was so brilliant at that. But I still rejected him because I have to be fair for the team and for the rest of the candidates who, you know, who considered this ahead of the interview.

I’m not saying that there weren’t any other candidates, you know, with little babies or they were overly tired because they were caring for their ill mother, etc. Whatever the reason may be. Point being we have to be fair and it’s really difficult because we have to make these tough decisions. And of course I want to help this father because my husband’s been in that position. I was. But this is a positive bias. So hone in on that element number one with the human touch and empathy, but then be on top of your biases and make sure they don’t come in the way of quality and how you deliver for your team. Company, brand, et cetera.

And then you just go into the formula of the process and your personal process within the process, how you communicate with candidates, how you communicate with your stakeholders. Because at the end of the day, you’ve got to manage it. So I have kids, which means there are times in the day before they go to sleep, I will not join a meeting and that’s it. I don’t care who you are, I’m not joining that meeting, but because I want to spend my one to one time with my children, because this is why I work, so that I could provide lifestyle for them. But then they go to sleep and I pick up the laptop and sometimes I work really late. Nobody’s asking me to. No one is promoting that lifestyle.

It’s my personal choice and it’s something I’ve agreed to do with, you know, my husband. So sometimes I go through CVs really late, past 7pm I send emails and I even am embarrassed that some of the candidates will receive them this late. Try to schedule them. But at the end of the day, something’s got to give and you just have to manage it in a way that works for your team, company client that you service, and also for the person on the other side and yourself.

Yeliz Castillo:
Yeah, totally agree. Great. Thank you so much, Milena. It was lovely, as always, and I think we have endless conversations about these topics. But yeah, it was lovely. So thank you so much for your time again.

Milena Warner:
Thank you for having me again, of course.