Neurodiversität im Recruiting mit Blaise Daldin

Thomas Kohler:
Today’s guest, Blaise Daldin.

So Blaise and I, we talked about neurodiversity. Blaise is a recruiter for more than eight years and we went a lot into neurodiversity by itself, but also how to leverage it in recruitment and what to consider in regards to neurodiversity. Blaise great to see you again in the new year. It’s cool that we got to know each other through hiring and then we said, hey, it would be really cool to do a podcast. And now we are here and we want to talk about neurodiversity in recruitment and all the aspects of it. So glad to do that. But maybe we start with a short introduction about yourself.

Blaise Daldin:
Absolutely. Thomas, lovely to meet you too. Thanks so much for the opportunity to be on your podcast. And yeah, as you say, whilst we didn’t, you know, make a hire there, it was definitely an opportunity to see how we can collaborate in the future. Before I do, kind of, I suppose, introduce myself. I just wanted to recognize your 2024. You had a really strong year. I listened to your podcast on the 25th, so, yeah, well done on the last year that you had.

Thomas Kohler:
Thanks.

Blaise Daldin:
So my name’s Blaise. I am a recruitment talent partner. I’ve been recruitment for the past eight years. My first kind of role was focusing on tech recruitment, resourcing. I was partnered to a kind of offline community called women in DevOps, which I suppose was my first flavor for diversity, equity and inclusion and what that meant for underrepresented talent. From there, it was really a piece of learning more about what recruitment looked like, the acronyms that were involved. Because when it comes to tech recruitment, there are a lot of acronyms. So it was a new kind of vocabulary for me.

It was a new way of working and a really kind of. I was able to be passionate about something that was very core to myself when it came to underrepresented talent. So that being said, I have worked for the likes of Amazon, Blink, Assas, B2B, the economist entity, data consultancy, and really being able to understand the nuances involved within recruitment and really how I could help shape what the recruitment practices look like with a focus on neurodiversity. So, yeah, that’s me.

Thomas Kohler:
Cool. And how would you define neurodiversity? And why does it matter?

Blaise Daldin:
Absolutely. So with neurodiversity, I would define it as a varied set of kind of cognitive abilities. So a lot of the kind of understandings around what neurodiversity is, is there’s a stigma Attached to it, people with neurodiversity, let’s say that adhd, dyspraxia, dyslexia, autism, narcolepsy, there are so many differences, neurological differences, and there are other cognitive variations that come up with neurodiversity. With myself, I am adhd. I was late diagnosed back end of last year and it was a massive learning curve. A lot of the whys I did what I did and really understanding and embracing the differences that I had to bring to the table, what kind of was innately in me, what made me passionate about diversity, equity, inclusion and really why I wanted to champion and be an advocate for this space. So to answer your question, typical ADHD thing to go off on a tangent and waffle is that neurological differences come from neurodiversity and as mentioned before, they are kind of variations within the human brain rather than deficits or disorders. And then to answer your second question, you asked me about neurodiversity and why it matters in the workplace.

Well, it matters for many reasons. Neurodivergence is a human being where it’s like you have someone who’s tall and short, someone who’s big and small. They’re just unique differences. No one kind of decides that they’re going to be tall or short when they’re born. Just as you don’t decide whether you’re going to be neurodivergent in terms of what it looks like in the workplace and why it matters, it unlocks untapped talent. There are a number of companies that are doing a number of different types of kind of. Well, they’re doing it right when it comes to neurodivergence. So you’ve got companies like Microsoft, a great example, who I’ve listened to a number of podcasts from a guy called Neil Bennett, who essentially is the director of disability within Microsoft, and he’s been championing an advocate for neurodivergence for a number of years, created incredible recruitment kind of strategies and scalable ways of working and, and really allowed for employees or new employees to come on board and feel championed, feel included, feeling equitable from the very beginning.

And really, it’s just an opportunity to really discuss the different, you know, companies that are making a difference in the workplace, but also an opportunity to be able to share that. It’s not again a hoop that you have to jump over. We are all human beings. We all bring our unique kind of differences and really being able to lean onto the strengths of, of individuals and how they collaborate with each other.

Thomas Kohler:
Yeah, I think also it’s always, I think, difficult to first even understand if you are a neurodiveristant or not because sometimes you’re not even aware of. Right. And I think it helps if you are aware of, I call it maybe spikes. What are your spikes? Right. And edges. And I think as you said, right, everybody is different there and I always see the positive in people’s characteristics and try to understand, let’s say as a manager, but also for myself, how can I build a team or create an environment where people with certain spikes and edges can really thrive. Right. So let’s say somebody that is more towards an ADHD type of person, which I, by myself, I would identify more with someone like this.

I never got it diagnosed or so on and I never really, I think was a doctor and nobody really cared or looked at it. But I could just from the characteristics of myself could say you could maybe even diagnose it if you look at it. Right. Because I need, when I to, to be calm. I need several things in parallel going on in my life all the time that I can jump when I basically want. Right. And this is why I wanted to also have a company, but also then started another one in a completely different field which is completely intertwined, not connected with each other. And this is really relaxing me actually, where maybe for somebody that is more, maybe on the autism spectrum, maybe would be completely overwhelmed with all the unknowns that are coming and all the craziness that is happening.

But I, for instance, it would be very hard for me to just sit down and do accounting every month or write code that is doing one specific thing, very detailed, very structured. Therefore I rather use frameworks because I think structure is also important. But you also need the flexibility zone. And this is where I also, this is how I look at it also from a management leadership perspective. Did you find a way for yourself on how to leverage yourself?

Blaise Daldin:
Yeah, no, definitely. I think you kind of hit the nail in the head. I think neurodivergence isn’t one kind of shoe fits all. We’re all very different in that respect. So as you mentioned, if one person is autistic, their way of working, their kind of attributes or strengths might be differ to someone with adhd. And as you say, you’re an entrepreneur. A lot of entrepreneurs come from the ADHD kind of sphere, as it were. They’ve got that kind of, you know, that foot on that pulse.

They can see the pattern recognition, they have strengths when it comes to fast paced environments. They don’t get overwhelmed where other people perhaps do get overwhelmed, but vice versa if you’re neurotypical people. So in that respect, yeah, I mean myself, I mean I, I’ve been up and down. I started sales about 16 years ago and I really enjoyed having my kind of pulse on that in that respect. So I was able to really turn a lot of things into motor skills and it was kind of came to second nature. So I was able to do a lot of things without even considering or thinking about it. And I think a lot of people who are neurodivergent in particular adhd, don’t really think before they do. And I don’t mean that in a negative way.

What I mean to say is when you’re starting a business you can think about all the pros and the cons, but you just need to go and do it. You need to kind of come with an idea and see how it kind of, you know, do the research and just go for it because the thinking is the element that actually stops you from doing. And similarly with me, I did eight years of kind of sales. I found myself kind of being, not to sound big headed but the better, the kind of top three, the top kind of, you know, seller when it came to that. It was always good at being people centric people pleasing, I suppose is a typical kind of trait of ADHD sadly, but also just being able to understand tones, body language, being able to really understand and listen to what people’s needs are. I think being neurodivergent and being a late diagnosed neurodivergent person with adhd, often we feel misunderstood, we feel shamed, we feel like we’re not good enough. We have imposter syndrome and these are all kind of anxiety and depression. They’re all kind of traits and symptoms of neurodivergent people that I struggled with but I never knew, I didn’t know what that meant.

My mum’s neurodivergent, she’s got narcolepsy. She’s that one step above ADHD where she falls asleep often when I have a conversation with her and she just half there and half not. I’ve got friends who are autistic and it’s just really, you know, finding the balance, understanding their strengths, understanding, you know, what, what works, how we can collaborate, how we can speak, how we communicate. And ultimately I’ve managed to find my, my voice through kind of Miranda ing that type of, kind of, kind of upbringing and environments and ultimately fast forwarding to recruitment. I did just over two years in My first company, I was really successful there. My first year and a half, something kind of clicked in my head and not in a good way. I kind of was a bit, I felt a bit lost. I felt like, right, I’ve done what I needed to do here.

I don’t feel like I’m at my best. I don’t feel I’m, I’m kind of happy and I didn’t know what it was. I, I certainly realized that later on, but it meant that I needed to, for me to get to where I am now, really try out different environments, find out my tribes, understand what kind of made me feel comfortable.

Thomas Kohler:
I think in recruitment, having the tendency for ADHD is not an. I think it’s not a disadvantage, right?

Blaise Daldin:
No, no, no, no.

Thomas Kohler:
It’s so dynamic and you need to handle so many things in parallel and especially so many things with things that you cannot impact, meaning you work with people on the hiring manager side, on the candidate side. So there are a lot of things that just can happen and I think you need to be very relaxed about it.

Blaise Daldin:
Exactly. You need to be relaxed about it. And as I’ve mentioned before, it’s, you know, you’re working with a number of different people. No one is the same, everyone is unique. It doesn’t matter whether you’re neurodivergent or neurotypical. The point of it is we need to learn to, to be able to speak to each other in an equitable, inclusive and diverse way. And, and again, it’s, it’s written with, with recruitment in sales. It is diverse.

You’re able to experiment, you’re able to be curious, you’re able to really lean into thinking out of the box and be that ideas person, that creative person. And that’s what I love about recruitment, right? I love being able to champion and advocate for people that are underrepresented whilst also finding paths to, to get to places where maybe people haven’t necessarily got to before because they’ve been scared to do it or they’ve not felt comfortable or confident doing that. So really creating these safe spaces for people so that you are focused on values. And again, some of the things I’ve mentioned around curiosity and creativity and empathy, these are values that are very core to neurodivergent people because as I say, they have been faced with a lot of adversity growing up. They felt misunderstood and so they’ve had to work away, work around ways to be able to speak and use their voice in a way that is helpful, supportive, not challenging. But Also, you know, true to themselves.

Thomas Kohler:
Yes. Bless you. You also said you have some statistics on how many people in the workforce are neurodivergent. Can you share some. Some data?

Blaise Daldin:
Absolutely. So I’m going to jump in with SAP. So one of the companies that, in my opinion, are doing it right when it comes to divergence in terms of creating kind of inclusive hiring practices. So since 2015, SAP, SAP have been working on a plat or program called Autism at Work, and their pledge is to have at least 1% of their workforce neurodivergent. Now, it doesn’t sound like a big number. It isn’t a big number, to be completely honest with you. And in my opinion, a lot of people that are neurodivergent are not necessarily out, they’re not necessarily kind of sharing with their work partners or colleagues or anyone even hr, that they have a neurodivergence, whether that’s dyspraxia, autism, narcolepsy, dis, Asperger’s. You know any of those? In terms of facts? Yes, give me one moment.

Sorry, I’m just bringing up because there are so many facts that I have kind of searched. So super, super interesting facts in terms of neurodivergence. So typically in work in the UK, specifically, 5 to 7% of workforces are made up of neurodivergent people. Now, that fact is based on kind of people analytics that I’ve searched throughout a number of different companies. But as mentioned quite just a moment ago, that fact isn’t really a true reflection of what ADHD looks like in the workplace, because there are, as I say, a lot of people that are and don’t necessarily want to share about that.

Thomas Kohler:
I think you can say it’s maybe two to four times or two to five times more. I think the dark number is way higher than the actual number, the actual reported number. What do you think?

Blaise Daldin:
Yes, I definitely, definitely agree with you. I mean, statistics say that one in nine people have a neurodivergence. So if we’re looking at one in nine people across the globe, globe, that have neurodivergence, there can’t be 1% in the workforce that have neurodivergence. There can’t be, you know, 5 to 7% in a UK kind of workforce. So I know that that fact and that statistic is wrong. It’s not very reflective, reflective of the actual workforces. And so in that respect, a lot of the data that I looked up, and it’s not empirical in that respect, it’s based on the kind of real time when it was done as opposed to the now. And we can talk about kind of HR and data analytics as well.

And, you know, when it comes to underrepresented talent, when it comes to focusing on Latina or focusing on the BAME community, ultimately we’re not necessarily seeing true reflections of what that data looks like because people don’t necessarily feel comfortable and confident sharing that in the first place. But again, some of the shocking information that I have found around kind of ADHD in the workforce is, is that people don’t feel comfortable sharing it. And again, that’s the whole point of having this podcast and having podcasts and literature around it is to be able to demystify that information and really kind of point out that people are scared and people do feel that they might lose their job or they might be looked at as lesser, and it is just really championing them in that respect.

Thomas Kohler:
And when looking into, let’s say, hiring from a candidate perspective, but also from an hiring team perspective, when it comes to neurodiversity, what do you think are the attributes to consider that make it more helpful in hiring when you’re faced with candidates that are neurodiverse or even hiring managers or whatever it is?

Blaise Daldin:
No, definitely. I think for. From a kind of higher managed perspective, I think I do understand there’s a lot of kind of nuances involved here. And I think ultimately, if you want to hire underrepresented communities, maybe specific to neurodivergence, it’s really taking the time to understand that and what that means, because, yes, you want to, you want to sing from the clouds and say, our company is, you know, disability kind of safe. It’s neurodivergence safe, it’s inclusive, it’s diverse. But ultimately, what are we doing in order for it to be inclusive and diverse and, and kind of equitable? So really, hiring managers, unless they have their own lived experiences, unless they’ve done training, majority of hiring managers, they’re doing a job, and that job to them is they need to hire somebody. This is the interview process and this is the scorecard. That’s all that matters.

And they just want to get people through the door. I understand that. I understand the need for speed. I understand, you know, wanting to make sure we hire somebody so that, you know, mental health isn’t affected in the team because we’re one person down. But it’s really, you know, educating hiring managers because if there is a lack of awareness or understanding, what are they doing that could maybe make someone that’s neurodivergent. Not feel that they’re comfortable or confident in the interview. What can you focus on to help them bring out their strengths? What types of kind of questions could you ask and maybe some examples of what you’re asking just so that that neurodivergent person knows what you’re asking them often with, with companies. So I talk about Amazon.

When I had my interview process, I didn’t know I was neurodivergent, definitely knew I was different. But it was over one day. It was a six hour interview process. Each hour was with two people. And they all happened to be diverse. And what I mean by that is they were underrepresented communities. We had women on the, on the, on the interview. I had people from the black community on the interview.

It just felt like I was the representation. It felt like it wasn’t, you know, white men in suits, sadly to say. And so I felt very much seen and very much heard and I felt like I could bring my authentic self because that’s who I was seeing on the screen. They, as an example, did it right because ultimately they are representation for the underrepresented. They asked me questions that focused on values rather than, you know, personal kind of questions that maybe they wanted to relate with you. So those values really made it easy for me to be able to say, okay, so when we’re doing leading from the front or we’re talking about a different type of value, I have examples that I can bring to the table because I understand exactly what you’re talking about. And I think that animosity when it comes to hiring managers and they’re not really sure how to be able to tease those answers out of their kind of potential employees. That is where things kind of crumble, I suppose.

And that’s where people with neurodivergence, I guess, are not set up for success, but failure from the very beginning. And again, it’s asking those questions, recruiters and taking the time to ask people, do you need reasonable adjustments? Do you need any help or support in the interview process? Because ultimately if you’re not asking that question, you’re kind of letting them, the candidate, know that we’re not a kind of disability safe or disability inclusive company. You’re kind of letting them know that I’m just doing a job. And that’s the kind of, you know, that’s, that’s that and that’s how I feel at least. And so I’m always, it’s always important regardless to always ask as part of one of my screening questions, are there any reasonable adjustments? Can we do anything? And I am seeing more and more of this happening when I am applying to roles, for instance, or I’ve seen opportunities online where you are asked if there are any kind of disabilities or anything that you want to talk and share about. But a lot of the time people don’t want to share that with them because they don’t feel comfortable or feel like they’re not going to be interviewed in the first place. So really, that onus is on the hiring managers, on the recruiter, and making sure that you’re able to champion the candidates from the very beginning so they feel safe and inclusive and equitable from the beginning.

Thomas Kohler:
Definitely. And when it comes to, let’s say, a first interview, a screening interview, is there something specific, what you would look at on a candidate perspective when you are evaluating, for instance, for a next job or company by yourself, what are you looking for in terms of also neurodiversity?

Blaise Daldin:
Absolutely. So specific to neurodiversity, I think I’m looking for strengths in what their anecdotes sound like. So I’m asking about collaboration. I appreciate that sometimes myself, I kind of waffle a lot or I beat around the bush and I have a point that I want to make, and it takes me some kind of time to get to those, to get to that point. But ultimately it’s seeing past that. Not everyone is able to be concise. In every given moment, there are going to be days, times, neurotypical, neurodivergent, it doesn’t matter. There are going to be off days for people off times.

For instance, we’re doing this 9am kind of a kind of podcast. I said yes to you, but that was very adhd of me to be impulsive and be like, yes, that’ll do it. But ultimately it would have been better had I moved the time to a bit later or asked if that was an opportunity so that I had more time to be able to wake up, as it were. But that being said, not everyone’s the same. There are some people that are, you know, like to be up at night, some people that like to be up in the morning. So ultimately, it’s really just making sure that you understand yourself and understand what your needs are. Because ultimately, how can someone help you if you don’t really know how to help yourself? I’m not sure if that’s the question you asked me. I think I perhaps did another waffle and went off on a tangent.

Thomas Kohler:
No, no, definitely. So I think that’s, that’s important because I think if it’s then maybe too inflexible or then it just doesn’t feel the right environment maybe for you, and then just from the first get go, you maybe don’t even want to go down the road again, right? And just say maybe I, maybe that’s not the right environment for me. And then you already as a candidate are maybe a bit skeptical, but okay, then you maybe go for the process, but there is always this skepticism in mind. And maybe it’s a good sign because you then see upfront that hey, this is not the right environment for me. And you then just go in with a mind like, okay, why could it be wrong to be hired at that company or to take this job? Right? And I think that’s maybe not, not a cool mindset to have going through a hiring interview process.

Blaise Daldin:
Precisely. And I think again, that’s another thing, I think overshare here. So my hiring process, I finished up with the Economist back end of last year and I’ve been interviewing and I guess a lot of the kind of anecdotes that I’m sharing with you are of my own lived experiences. I, I can of course talk for other people as well, because I’ve been in those situations. I’ve also, you know, hired neurodivergent people. And really it’s, you know, it’s, you’re almost setting yourself up for failure because you’re seeking validation from, you know, the feedback that you get that you don’t always get. And often companies don’t bother. You’re not seeing the red flags because you’re spending so much time in making sure that you’re answering the questions right and looking for those cues in their facial expressions, hoping that a hiring manager comes on the video in the first place, that you can see what they look like and you can kind of get a bit of, you know, a response or build a bit of rapport with them.

Um, but ultimately it’s just when you’re speaking to, you know, these candidates and you’re really, you know, understanding what their needs are, they’re no different to somebody else’s. They’re just telling you their experiences, they’re sharing their anecdotes with you in their own way. It doesn’t mean to say that they’re better or not as good. It just means to say that some people have learned their craft or some people have, what’s the word is mask. They’re, they’re high performing, masking people. So they’re able to mask so neurotypical, so they’re able to answer these questions, but they end up burning out a lot more. And so ultimately, it’s really looking at the strengths. To answer your initial question is looking at the strengths and the values of these potential employees, these neurodivergent employees, recognizing that they bring their own strengths, that they see things in a different way.

They’re outside of the box, they think outside of the box. And ultimately, how that compares to someone who isn’t neurodivergent, I. E. The hiring manager might be neurotypical and not really seeing the kind of the relevance in what they’re saying, or not really seeing or understanding why they’re explaining themselves that way. And so essentially kind of losing interest in the conversation. And again, the neurodivergent person is now thinking, I can see that, losing interest. And then they start to feel imposter syndrome, that they’re not good enough. They’re not seeing the red flags within the interview process.

They may even be offered later down the line. But actually, they missed all the cues from the very beginning because they weren’t asked about reasonable adjustments. They didn’t feel like the hiring manager really listened to what they were asking when they asked questions in emails, when they were asking for clarifying questions to make sure they understood the question, the hiring manager maybe wasn’t necessarily giving that to them. And again, the hiring manager is none the wiser because they haven’t had the training, they’re neurotypical, they haven’t been around that environment. They’re looking for one thing when they’re asking these questions and not thinking, okay, this person might be answering the question, but in a somewhat different way. I’m not going to mark them down for that. I’m going to ask them some more questions because maybe they didn’t get what I was saying. And so ultimately, it’s just really changing your perception, changing the way that you kind of look at things, because ultimately not one size fits all.

As mentioned at the very beginning, there are tall people, there are short people, there are big people, there are small people. We’re all very different. And ultimately, it’s just trying to seek those brilliances in individuals in a way that the other person receives it and the other person gets it. And the more that you do it, the more that you get stronger and more confident in doing it. And ultimately it just becomes more ingrained in your practice. And I think you’ll find that neurotypical people will appreciate that too, because as I say everyone has an off day.

Thomas Kohler:
Thanks. I think that were great. Final words. Thanks for your time.

Blaise Daldin:
Thank you so much. Appreciate your time. And thank you for having me on your podcast.